Bowen not a defensive player

[SPURSX3]

By scottie's logic, Ron Artest shouldnt be an a+ defensive player - hell HE shouldnt be one of the 50 greatest players by that logic!  Jordan made the players arond him better - scottie was one of those players - but here is the guy who everyone argues about being deserving of the title of one of the 50 best - who was basically made that way because the REAL star on his team.  Yes, Tim makes players around him better, tim makes it easier for anyone on the team to do thier job defensivley AND offensively, thats what great players do, they make those aorund them better.  I know some of you are going to swear up and down pippen deserved to be one of the 50, whatever.  My point is, he is putting the same view that many people have of scottie on to Bruce - jackmunch.

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Scottie Pippen: "Bruce Bowen Not A Defensive Player"
Staff and Wire Reports
Monday, April 25, 2005



Scottie Pippen, six-time NBA champ and one of the NBA's 50 Greatest Players is sure to stir some controversy with his latest comments. As he hands out his "Pip Awards" choices for the various NBA Awards on his blog for NBA.Com, Pippen takes a swipe at San Antonio's Bruce Bowen.

"It's hard to find a defensive player in the game. A lot of people mention Bruce Bowen as a candidate, but he's not a defensive player and he's never been a defensive player," writes Pippen.

"He's got a seven-footer behind him who can block shots. What's his defense? Run you at the seven-footer? You put a seven-footer like Tim Duncan behind me, who's gonna get defensive player of the year, me or Tim Duncan? The deal with Bowen is he's 6-7 and there's not many people who can shoot over a 6-7 person. He never received the Defensive Player of the Year Award when he played in Miami, did he?"

Pippen fails to recognize what most around the NBA see as great talent and results.

Bowen is assigned the task of defending the opponent’s best scorer on a night-in, night-out basis. He has helped the Spurs hold opponents to fewer than 80 points on 19 different occasions, and the Spurs won 18 of them.

Also, Bowne is a huge part of San Antonio’s league-leading defense holds opponents to 88.4 points per game.

 

[Reality]

"He never received the Defensive Player of the Year Award when he played in Miami, did he?"

Pippen fails to recognize what most around the NBA see as great talent and results.

 

Lets talk about what you recieved in Houston and in Failblazerville.

Oh and Chicago II since you mention Bowen in Miami.

 

[Guest_Randy]

Bowen IS a very good defensive player -- the problem is that Pip thinks he was even better than MJ!  Pip also was a very good defensive player but these comments are ridiculous.  Bowen does like to grab -- but I can name a LOT of defensive players who do that.  

Bowen isn't as good as Artest, defensively, IMO but he is one of the better defenders in the league.  Sure, having TD in the backcourt allows him to play "in your face" defense but let's not forget that Pip also had Horace Grant or Rodman in the post too -- neither of those two players were slouches when it came to defense.  

Pip just likes to hear himself talk -- and he has to find an issue that will actually get his quotes in print -- because otherwise nobody cares what he says!!!

[rickortreat]

Pippen is a moron.  He was never that good a player, and he really doesn't understand the game.  A lot of people tied to help Scottie, like Charles bringing him into Houston and sacrificing some salary to do it, but Scottie ripped him in public for his play.

Scottie is trying to get into broadcasting, but he's too stupid and concieted to make it as a national broadcaster.

Top 50? not on my list.  

[westkoast]

Pippen is a moron.  He was never that good a player

I think you are trying to beat Pip for most off-the-wall comment.

Bowen not a defensive player? Riiiiiggghhhttt.   Maybe I should tell Scottie that he wasnt even a decent offensive player because he had Michael Jordan in the backcourt.  Is pushing your man to tough spots on the floor not part of playing good defense?

[Guest_Randy]

Pippen is a moron.  He was never that good a player, and he really doesn't understand the game.  A lot of people tied to help Scottie, like Charles bringing him into Houston and sacrificing some salary to do it, but Scottie ripped him in public for his play.

Scottie is trying to get into broadcasting, but he's too stupid and concieted to make it as a national broadcaster.

Top 50? not on my list.

Rick, Pippen is a moron -- he is also not a top 50 player, IMO, however, let's NOT say he wasn't "that good a player" -- he IS a better player all around than Bruce Bowen.  There aren't too many SF's who could run an offense like he could -- and he was a better player than Grant Hill, IMO, one of the few SF's who could net comparison.  Pippen WAS a good defensive player -- a little different than Bowen but just as good -- he just was better offensively than Bowen (that's not Bowen's strength).  Pippens comments were ridiculous and wrong but you can't say that Pippen wasn't that good a player -- and I DESPISE Scottie Pippen!

[rickortreat]

Pippen was more lucky than good IMO.  He never won anything without Jordan.  He could run the floor and he could shoot, but he didn't break down opponenents and he didn't make his teamates better.  Not a bad rebounder.

He had an opportunity to show how good he was when MJ took off for a season.  The Bulls didn't make it out of the second round.

Championship team with MJ.  Second round looser without MJ.  

The biggest thing about Pippen was his attitude.  I recall one time his coach wanted to put him back into the game and he refused.  Refused to go into the game.  

When everything is going good it's easy to want to play.  When things get tough and you're teamates need you, a good player responds,  a punk like Scottie Pippen sits and pouts.  

[Guest_Randy]

Rick, come on now, how many players can win all by themselves?  People act like Shaq is really superman because the Heat are winning -- umm, Shaq COULDN'T do it by himself -- in fact, Wade is carrying a much larger role in scoring than Shaq does (although Shaq carries a larger role at the other end of the court).  You aren't going to find ONE player who can do it all by himself -- MJ NEEDED Pippen and Grant/Rodman to win a title -- without great rebounding and post defense, MJ wouldn't have won anything.  You can't really say that because Pippen didn't get anywhere without MJ, that he isn't any good.  If you would have taken Malone or Stockton away from each other, it wouldn't have meant that he isn't a good player.  Just because the Lakers didn't get to the playoffs doesn't mean that Kobe isn't a great player -- it just means he doesn't have much of a supporting cast and our interior offense/defense sucks!  

I don't know ANY great players that did it all by themselves, do you?  The Bulls let Grant go and they didn't pick up Rodman until MJ came back.

Pip WAS a very good player -- he just wasn't as great as he thinks he is!

Compare Pip and AI (this is Pip without MJ):
      FG%  3pt%  Reb   Ass   Stl   Blk  TO   PPG
Pip  48%  34.5     8     5.2  1.88  .55  2.6   21.4
AI   42%   31       4     7.9  2.4    .1   4.6   30.7

It looks like me that Pip is very comparable to AI, IMO.

[rickortreat]

Well AI has won several scoring titles, something Pippen never did, and AI was pretty much the reason the Sixers got to the finals, although something should be said about the defense that the Sixers played that season, prior to the trade for Mutumbo.  There's a big difference between averageing 30 a game like AI has done and continues to do, as oppossed to Pippen in the low 20's.

But I was thinking about all the splendid players in the NBA not in that top 50 of all time list, and there were a number of them that were clearly better than Pippen.

Not in order:

Dominique Wilkins
Adrian Dantley
Mark Aguire
Jamal Wilkes
Reggie Miller
Bobby Jones
Bernard King
Pete Maravich
Alex English


These guys are just off the top of my head, and IMO were all better than Pippen.  Everyone of these guys could fill it up on any given night. I mean these players could really shoot the lights out.  

Pippen was a star at the time the talent in the league was watered down.  Prior to the Bulls it took multiple all stars on a team to win a championship.  Pippen was second fiddle to Jordan, who really was an exceptional talent.

The Pistons were a much better team, that finally got to old, and prior to them the Laker and Celtics teams were vastly superior.

The only reason Pippen gets any credability is that he has all the NBA championship rings, but if the Bulls had those guys 10 years earlier, I don't think they would have won one championship.  They never had a decent center, the best of them being Cartwright.  Horace Grant was a decent thug, but against McHale or Worthy he was a nothing.

On a historical basis, the watered down NBA of the Bulls era was a joke, and to be in the top 50 of all time, you should be clearly better than the peers of your era.  Pippen simply doesn't belong with players like Bird, Magic, Doc, Oscar Robertson, etc.  There was nothing exceptional about him as a player.  Nothing so noteworthy about him that justifies his status.  

[westkoast]

You guys are bringing up good points on why Pippen isn't a top 50 player.  I didn't realize some of that list above were not in the top 50.  However you guys overlooked a few things....

NBA marketing was heavy in the 80s and 90s.  Pippen really was one of the top 15 players in the league during the bulls run.  The Bulls were VERY marketable.  Of course the top50 celebration was as much a marketing move as it was the NBAs way of giving props.

That Bulls run was one of the most impressive runs in basketball history.   Second only to the Celts run.  Some would even argue it was the most impressive run in history.  Pippen was a major player in that run.




Rick, AI is a much better one on one player than Pippen.  A much better scorer and has had to actually put a team on his back practically by himself.  You are dead on with those.  BUT!  Pippen is the better all around basketball player.  He ran the offense better on the Bulls (more consistantly also) than AI has ran the offense with the Sixers.  Sure AI scores more but Pippen was dropping 20 and was playing good defense.    Pippen is by far the better defender...by light years.

[Guest_Randy]

Well AI has won several scoring titles, something Pippen never did, and AI was pretty much the reason the Sixers got to the finals, although something should be said about the defense that the Sixers played that season, prior to the trade for Mutumbo.  There's a big difference between averageing 30 a game like AI has done and continues to do, as oppossed to Pippen in the low 20's.

But I was thinking about all the splendid players in the NBA not in that top 50 of all time list, and there were a number of them that were clearly better than Pippen.

Not in order:

Dominique Wilkins
Adrian Dantley
Mark Aguire
Jamal Wilkes
Reggie Miller
Bobby Jones
Bernard King
Pete Maravich
Alex English


These guys are just off the top of my head, and IMO were all better than Pippen.  Everyone of these guys could fill it up on any given night. I mean these players could really shoot the lights out.  

Pippen was a star at the time the talent in the league was watered down.  Prior to the Bulls it took multiple all stars on a team to win a championship.  Pippen was second fiddle to Jordan, who really was an exceptional talent.

The Pistons were a much better team, that finally got to old, and prior to them the Laker and Celtics teams were vastly superior.

The only reason Pippen gets any credability is that he has all the NBA championship rings, but if the Bulls had those guys 10 years earlier, I don't think they would have won one championship.  They never had a decent center, the best of them being Cartwright.  Horace Grant was a decent thug, but against McHale or Worthy he was a nothing.

On a historical basis, the watered down NBA of the Bulls era was a joke, and to be in the top 50 of all time, you should be clearly better than the peers of your era.  Pippen simply doesn't belong with players like Bird, Magic, Doc, Oscar Robertson, etc.  There was nothing exceptional about him as a player.  Nothing so noteworthy about him that justifies his status.

Rick,

You are putting WAY too much emphasis on scoring!  There are SEVERAL players you mentioned on that list that AREN'T better than Pippen -- sure, they may be better scorers but you WON'T win a championship with just scoring -- you win it with defense!!!  Defense IS the reason why Philly got to the finals that year -- NOT offense and NOT AI's scoring ability.  IF Pippen had shot the ball more, he COULD have scored more -- AI throws up the ball TOO much (I've even heard you complain about it) -- that's how he gets his scoring average up and why his FG% is always horrible.

Dominique Wilkins - not a better player than Pip, simply a better scorer
Adrian Dantley - see above
Mark Aguire - see above
Jamal Wilkes - see above
Reggie Miller - see above
Bobby Jones - Bobby WAS a better player than Pip, IMO
Bernard King - I would say King was as good as Pip
Pete Maravich - he wasn't a better player individually than Pip but he did help change the game, IMO
Alex English - not a better player than Pip

AI ISN'T the reason the Sixers got to the Finals -- they did it with defense.
Sure, there is a big difference between averaging 30 ppg and 20 ppg, however, there is also a HUGE difference between how many times they launch the ball per game -- the fact is that Pip took better shots, it's hard to compare him to a guy who constantly launches up shots whether they are good or not (and his FG% reflects that).

The BIGGEST difference is defense -- and that's why Pip is a better player than most of the guys you mentioned -- Pip was a good defender and a great team defender.  That sets him above AI and most of the guys you mentioned.

[jn]

Agreed Randy, though if Wilkins is behind Pippen, it isn't by much, IMHO.  Also the knocks on Pippen are his attitude(i.e. wiliting under the Pistons pressure, the "You're calling a play for Kukoc?" incident and the bad mouthing of Barkley in Houston) and that he never won a title without MJ but plenty of these other guys were as bad or worse.  Aguire and King both had massive attitudes and along with Maravich and English were never guys able to put there teams on their backs and carry them into the finals, much less win a title as the main player. Aguire, Wilkes and Jones all have titles but they weren't "the man" on those teams.  In fact, they weren't even the main sidekicks.  

 

[Derek Bodner]

Defense IS the reason why Philly got to the finals that year -- NOT offense and NOT AI's scoring ability

Erm...it was a combination randy.  Without AI's scoring and offense, that team doesn't make the playoffs.  That team was built to require AI to drop 30 / night, and that shouldn't be taken away.

He deservedly won the MVP that year.

[rickortreat]

Randy outscoring the opponent is what wins games.  Typically you need some defense to do it, but if you give me the choice between a guy like Pippen and a player like the others I listed, I'll take my chances with them.

The truth is defensive stoppers outside of shot-blocking centers are overated. It's a way to say nice things about a player who can't score.  Basketball is a team game, and defense is predicated on the team working together, to intercept passes, prevent the scorer from getting to the postion he wants, and not giving him a clean look.  Andre Igoudala is a great defensive player, but he won't be an all-star until he puts up points.  Pippen was a good defensive player, but he also threw up over 20 a game, that's what made him an all-star.  Bowen won't ever be one, even though he's a great defensive player.

All the players I mentioned here could kill a defender one on one.  No one can stop T-Mac except himself, and the same was true with all these players.  It's also the reason Shaq is the most dominant player in the game.

Yeah, Aguire was a whack-job, but I saw him score regularly for several seasons, and he was unstoppable.  Quickest release, and a good body for establishing postion.  I saw Dr. J come into town and both of them were determined to show each other who the real player was.  Both of them ended up scoring over 40.  Pippen could never do that, and he couldn't stop either of those guys from putting up numbers like that. Aguire didn't have a team around him in Dallas that could get to the championship, but they did take a great laker team very deep before getting ousted, and he was the primary scorer.

All these guys I listed besides Bobby Jones won scoring titles.  That makes them better. Think about this for a second. These players all outscored everyone else in the NBA for an entire season.  That's much harder to do than shutting a guy down every now and then.