Parker, Spurs end contract talks

[guest-koast]

I know this is the Spurs and you hate them quite a bit so its hard to get a fair unbias response from you.  Tony Parker is a star player.  He proved that he is better than your average basketball player.  In fact I would say he is one of the better emerging young players.   Is he a Super Star? No.  Is he a franchise player? No.  Can he carry a team on his back by himself? No.  Its very hard to be a PG and strap a team on your back.  Only person who comes to mind who has been able to successfully do it was Magic Johnson.  

[Guest_Randy]

I know this is the Spurs and you hate them quite a bit so its hard to get a fair unbias response from you.  Tony Parker is a star player.  He proved that he is better than your average basketball player.  In fact I would say he is one of the better emerging young players.   Is he a Super Star? No.  Is he a franchise player? No.  Can he carry a team on his back by himself? No.  Its very hard to be a PG and strap a team on your back.  Only person who comes to mind who has been able to successfully do it was Magic Johnson.

Koast,

I don't like the Spurs although there are Spurs players that I do like but if TP is a star in this league, than this league is FILLED with stars.  

PG's that are ALL better than TP:
  Kidd, Arenas, Bibby, Cassell, Marbury, Davis, Francis, Nash, Anthony Miller (others that I don't consider a true PG - Wade, LeBron, Iverson)

PG's that are as good as TP:
  Billups, Arroyo

Let me put it another way -- I think that Chucky Atkins is close to being as good as TP is currently.

If you think that ALL those PG's are stars, I think we have too many stars in this league -- I wouldn't consider all of them "stars."  I would limit "stars" to being those who are playing or worthy of playing in an all-star game.  Superstars would be the handful of players who can carry a team on their back.

[Guest_Randy]

Troy Hudson didn't play in the playoffs last year. Plus he was killing them behind screens anyways. Defending the pick and roll is not just one players job. I don't think you are giving TP much credit Randy. He was killing the Lakers every which way. Jump shots, penetration, lay ups, drive and kick. He had very impressive numbers. Not just in the Laker series either. In each series. During that championship run and in the first round last year and half this year.

Name a PG that HASN'T killed the Lakers in the last few years?  Umm, look what Billups did to the Lakers -- think he deserves $10+ a year as well?  NO way!  Parker ISN'T worth $10 mill a year -- TOPS $8 -- really more like $7, IMO.

I never said TP makes Tim Duncan a better player, but he certainly pulls part of the load. All dominating big men make other players better. That's like saying the only reason Kobe is able to put up 25 5 5 is because of Shaq. That wasn't true. He gave Kobe more room to operate but he did not score, rebound, pass, and dice up the defense for Kobe. Similar situation with Tony/Timmy (although Tony is nowhere near Kobe playerwise). Tim gives Tony alot more room to operate and doesn't make him the main focus. However, Duncan's life would have been miserable time and time again wtihout Tony. He depends on him to bail him out of double teams and bad situations. Of course the Spurs players depend more on Tim than viice versa, does not mean Tim doesnt need help. That is a Shaq way of thinking. Shaq and only Shaq can do the work and get it done.

Man, stop and read your post -- do you really believe this?  Kobe WILL put up 25 5 and 5 whether Shaq is playing with him or not -- TP wouldn't put up better numbers without TD -- he will put up better numbers WITH TD.  He shot .312 from the arch last year -- WITH TD on the floor -- Kobe shot .327 and I wouldn't consider Kobe a three point specialist.  TP beat the Lakers with dribble penetration -- because the Lakers didn't have ANYONE (outside Kobe) who could stay with him -- but before we start basing TP's salary contract on his play against the Lakers, you might note that EVERY decent PG in the league has ALWAYS killed the Lakers -- for several reasons:  1) lack of defensive PG abilities (ever since Fish had his first foot surgery) and 2) lack of Shaq playing the pick and rolls.  Name an opponent who HAD a decent PG that DIDN'T kill the Lakers?  Why do you think the Spurs got Brent Barry -- because the Spurs need better 3 point shooting.

Randy please join the rest of us in reality. Gasol will not carry his team anywhere.

Gasol isn't a great franchise player -- is he a superstar?  NO!  Parker isn't even a star player -- at least Gasol IS a star player -- there are a TON of players who have never led their team to a championship -- that doesn't diminish the work they did on the court:  Malone, Stockton, Barkley, etc.  Stockton was one of the best PG's the league will ever see (even though I HATED the guy as a player) -- just because he never delivered a championship (mainly because of MJ) doesn't mean that he is lacking as a player.  Brand is another guy who is going to give you star play but he isn't a superstar and therefore can't strap a team on his back.  Kirilenko isn't going to be a player that is going to be able to strap a team on his back, IMO (okay, he might be able to do that on a fantasy league) but that doesn't diminish his rank in the NBA.  You want to make Parker a star -- the guy doesn't deserve that status based on his play.  Parker is a solid role player -- but he isn't a star!  Will he be one someday?  Maybe, but he isn't there yet and I don't think it's worth jeopardizing your future in the hopes that he will.

Uhh Randy....this will be the 3rd time in this thread that I have said that he does not deserve that amount of money.  I am saying that TP is a better player than Gasol.  You are trying to argue about money.  We both agree on the fact that he does not deserve what they are asking.

Before I put much thought into it.....one PG that hasnt killed the Lakers in the last few years?  Jason Kidd.

Again...I didnt say Kobe WOULDNT put up those numbers.  What I said is that Shaq was not the reason why Kobe was putting up 25 5 5.  Kobe was the reason he was putting up 25 5 5.  Before you tell me to go back and read my post, I suggest you do the same.

Hopefully that should help you recognize the point here -- the Lakers have had big time trouble with EVERY quick point guard -- Kidd isn't quick.  

As for TP being as good as Gasol, I don't think Gasol is worth his contract either but I think you would be on a very small list of those who believe that Parker is as good a player as Gasol is.  Gasol is a better defensive player than Parker and as least as good offensively.

[ziggy]

Spurs are offering Parker $64 million over 6 years?  That is ridiculous.  Parker is a good solid player, but he isn't that good.  If this is structured like a typical NBA deal he will be making around $14,000,000 in the last year.  Holy Crap!!

Parker isn't as good as Arenas, or Andre Miller, or Sam Cassell, or a whole host of other PG.  This has Damon Stoudamire written all over it.  How many teams in the league are prepared to step up and pay him $64 over 6?  If nobody is then why should the Spurs?

Same thing goes with Zach Randolph.  Just because the Grizzlies want to over pay Pau Gasol doesn't mean that the Blazers should over pay Zach.

Ziggy,

Would you feel different about Randolph (salary-wise) if he was a model citizen?  Just curious.

Randy,
My point first was to not allow his agent to allow another contract to dictate Zach's contract terms.  The NBA is very much a buyers market, and you don't have to just give them what they want.  The notion as well that they will get their feelings hurt is bogus.  If you are paying someone $60 million plus, they better suck it up and play whether they like their deal or not.
Just because Gasol has lower stats doesn't mean Zach should be paid the same or more.  The fact that Gasol was the undisputed leader of the 5th best team in the West, while Zach was the leader of the #10 team, if ample justification that Zach isn't due Gasol's money.  I happen to think the Zach can be a star, but lets see you put up numbers for more than 1 season and get your team in the playoffs before asking for the moon.

As far as Zach and his "character", I think that should play into how much you pay him.  So far he has shown that he is a talented flake.  We have had enough of those. Lets see if he can get it together for more than 2 or 3 weeks.

[Guest_Randy]

Ziggy,

I agree with you -- I think that character IS a basis for the size of the contract -- we have seen a number of players that have been payed regardless of their character and I can't remember a time when it has really paid off in the long run.  I would love to see the NBA (i.e. teams) begin to tell players that we DO care about your character and it will be reflected in your contracts.

[Lurker]

Randy....there is one small thing you should take into consideration.  $10 mil is NOT a max contract anymore.  Approx $14-16 mil is max money.  So $8-9 mil STARTING salary is a good range for the 2nd tier of talent in the NBA.

A $63 mil, 6 yr salary and $66.9 mil, 6 year salarybreakdown:
year 1   8.0 mil      8.50mil
year 2   9.0 mil      9.56 mil
year 3  10.0 mil    10.62 mil
year 4  11.0 mil    11.68 mil
year 5  12.0 mil    12.74 mil
year 6  13.0 mil    13.80 mil

So that 10+ mil average salary starts out at 8 mil and 11 mil average starts out at 8.5 mil.


P.S.  As far as your list of point guards better than Parker....you can't be serious.  There is more to running the point in the NBA than padding your stats.  It is the inrtangibles...like actually running the team on the floor and leading your team to victories....that makes it so difficult a transition from college to the pros.  Also you might want to factor in that Parker is only 22 years old.

[Guest_Randy]

Randy....there is one small thing you should take into consideration.  $10 mil is NOT a max contract anymore.  Approx $14-16 mil is max money.  So $8-9 mil STARTING salary is a good range for the 2nd tier of talent in the NBA.

A $63 mil, 6 yr salary and $66.9 mil, 6 year salarybreakdown:
year 1   8.0 mil      8.50mil
year 2   9.0 mil      9.56 mil
year 3  10.0 mil    10.62 mil
year 4  11.0 mil    11.68 mil
year 5  12.0 mil    12.74 mil
year 6  13.0 mil    13.80 mil

So that 10+ mil average salary starts out at 8 mil and 11 mil average starts out at 8.5 mil.


P.S.  As far as your list of point guards better than Parker....you can't be serious.  There is more to running the point in the NBA than padding your stats.  It is the inrtangibles...like actually running the team on the floor and leading your team to victories....that makes it so difficult a transition from college to the pros.  Also you might want to factor in that Parker is only 22 years old.

I can't be serious about what?  Padding stats?  I realize that you are a Spurs fan but without TD, the Spurs have a tough time going to the playoffs and TP wouldn't be leading them to victory.  TP MIGHT be a top PG some day -- I do realize he is very young but he isn't worth $14 mill in a contract at THIS point in his career -- and the Spurs are jeopardizing their ability to sign quality players if they start giving their 3rd best player that kind of money.  Bowen is as important to this team as TP is -- are they going to give him $10 mill a year?  IMO, Manu and Barry are both better players than TP (at this point in his career) -- Bowen is as good (his importance being on the defensive end rather than the offensive end) as TP and we all know that the Spurs rise and fall with TD.  That means that there are 3 others in front of TP and one tied with him -- that doesn't rate $10 mill a year in my book.  I would agree with the $8 mill -- but you are overpaying him for what he MIGHT become in the future -- and in todays NBA that's a huge mistake, IMO.  Let him get out there and see that other GM's don't rate himself as highly as he rates himself -- sure, he MIGHT be able to get Arena's kind of money (he isn't as good as Arenas) but it's going to be on a REALLY bad team and TP is going to learn what REAL pressure is because he is going to be expected to carry the load, not just run the offense.  

PS - running the Spurs offense can't be THAT hard -- Avery Johnson did it for years!

[Lurker]

Very simple question Randy.

Is Tony parker worth $8 mil next season?


Because despite all of your rhetoric and bluster that is ALL the Spurs are offering.  Not $14 mil.  Not $10 mil.  But $8 mil for next season.

And I still don't agree that Arenas, Cassell, Miller, Francis are all better than Parker.  Based on your logic of Tp being #3 on the Spurs what makes Cassell better than #3 on the Wolves?  Arenas, Miller & Francis are fantasy studs but don't win in the NBA.  As koast has pointed out leading a team....and being the superstar doesn't necessarily mean you are the leader...on the floor to the playoffs and championship adds a lot more value than scoring 20 pts per game and watching the playoffs from home.

[Guest_Randy]

Very simple question Randy.

Is Tony parker worth $8 mil next season?


Because despite all of your rhetoric and bluster that is ALL the Spurs are offering.  Not $14 mil.  Not $10 mil.  But $8 mil for next season.

And I still don't agree that Arenas, Cassell, Miller, Francis are all better than Parker.  Based on your logic of Tp being #3 on the Spurs what makes Cassell better than #3 on the Wolves?  Arenas, Miller & Francis are fantasy studs but don't win in the NBA.  As koast has pointed out leading a team....and being the superstar doesn't necessarily mean you are the leader...on the floor to the playoffs and championship adds a lot more value than scoring 20 pts per game and watching the playoffs from home.

Lurker,

Sure, the Spurs are only offering him $8 mill for this next year -- but then it's $10, and it goes up to $14 so it's misleading to quote that they are only paying him $8 for this season because the contract is for MUCH more than that in the future.

As for the assessment that TP is better because he has played on a championship team, that's just totally unrealistic -- TP didn't lead the Spurs to victory any more than Derek Fisher led the Lakers.  Both were role players who helped their team win by supported their big guns who brought home trophies for them.

As for Cassell, I would say that he is just as important to the TWolves as Spree is -- therefore tied for #2, not in a #3 position.  The TWolves AREN'T going to win without Cassell -- I believe the Spurs CAN win without TP.

[Lurker]

Of course it goes up over the life of the contract....guess what.  All contracts do.  In six years when he will make $14 mil...free agents probably will be signing contracts for more than that.  You can't look at the final figure.  You need to look at  what he will be paid next season.  In six years at age 28 he could be an all star and the best pg in the league worth a max contract not slightly above average.

[Guest_Randy]

Of course it goes up over the life of the contract....guess what.  All contracts do.  In six years when he will make $14 mil...free agents probably will be signing contracts for more than that.  You can't look at the final figure.  You need to look at  what he will be paid next season.  In six years at age 28 he could be an all star and the best pg in the league worth a max contract not slightly above average.

In six years at age 28 he could be an all star and the best pg in the league worth a max contract not slightly above average.

Yeah, he COULD be but right now he isn't and you don't know that he ever will.

[Lurker]

Yeah, he COULD be but right now he isn't and you don't know that he ever will.

That is true about just about every one who has signed contract extensions....you never know what they will do in the future.