Author Topic: Bush's flip-flops  (Read 3621 times)

Offline ziggy

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Bush's flip-flops
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2004, 12:07:49 PM »
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The thing is that this isn't what Bush is commited to....his commitment is to maintaining power, control and monetary rewards for himself & his posse.

Same old Michael Moorish bull crap.

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Bush is not out after terrorism....if he was then we would make large number of hit and run attacks around the world.  We are not attacking terrorist training sites or fighting nations that support terrorists.

What is this? Deliberate misinformation or blissful ignorance? Iraq supported terrorism. Saddam Hussein gave tens of thousands of dollars to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. And although no direct link to Al Qaida has been proven, there were definitely contacts made. Saddam supported terrorism.

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We are not ferreting out supporters and taking them out.  We are mired in a Vietnam-like war based on eliminating one man (mission accomplished) that we have no chance of winning and costing hundreds of lives weekly.

Again, ignorance or deliberate misinformation? At the current rate, we'd have to be in Iraq with the name attrition rate FOR SIXTY YEARS before this conflict matched the toll in Vietnam. Go pull out a history book before you make stupid references to a much more horrific event. The civilian death toll in Iraq is nothing like what the Vietnamese experienced, not even close. And we've been in Iraq for almost a year and a half and we've lost 1,000 soldiers; that's a couple of months in Vietnam.

We ARE ferreting out supporters. Every day we arrest terror suspects in Iraq and Afghanistan, and our allies in Pakistan and elsewhere are doing the same.

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If we want to wage a war on terrorism then let's do it.  Let's use world wide intelligence to locate and destroy training camps.

Lunacy. Yeah, let's destroy a few tents. Maybe we'll take out a few donkeys, you know, cripple their transportation infrastructure. If we're lucky, we'll blow up a few boxes of hand grenades and some AK-47 rounds while we're at it. That'll really hit Al Qaida where it hurts. Great frickin' idea! Maybe we'll get really lucky and take out some fifteen-year-old potential suicide bombers. Let's just ignore the deep-pocketed financiers of terrorism.

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And after a few major strikes around the world terrorists are going to find it tougher to gain support.

HOLY SH*T! That's the missing piece! That's the answer! We blow up six tents, a box of grenades, a donkey and a few fifteen-year-olds and Osama Bin Laden is going to get scared! Iran's going to see a terrorist training camp in Sudan blown to bits and of course they'll say, "Hmm, maybe we better rethink our plans to produce nuclear weapons. And we'd tell all those Jihad preaching Imams to put a cork in it . . . I mean, dang, those could have been our tents!!"

That's the answer! YEAH! VOTE KERRY!

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Leave Iraq now and attack another terrorist-supporting regime.

Bad idea. First, it makes us look even worse than we do. The difficult truth is that we've committed to an experiment in democracy in Iraq. A lot of people see freedom as the only thing that will permanently defeat fundamentalism. I don't know whether they're right or not, but it's worth a try. And it's not the worst thing we could be doing. If we can build some sort of freedom for the Iraqi people, they may just like us a teeny little bit after we've gone. We leave them with no infrastructure and ready for civil war, they're definitely going to hate us forever.

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Use black-ops and assassins to eliminate financial supporters of terrorism.  Make people around the world understand that the US will stop at nothing to eliminate anyone who supports random violent attacks on innocent people.

Now you're talking! I like this idea a lot! I'm not being sarcastic here; I really agree with you. Take the kid gloves off with supporters of terrorism. If we prove that some Parisian billionaire is supporting Al Qaida financially, we take him out, we send in Jason Bourne. This tactic probably won't work in all situations, though. If the financial supporter of terrorism is the head of an enemy regime, taking him out might not be possible. If Kim Jong Il of North Korea says he's going to sell a tactical nuke to Osama, we might not be able to assassinate him. What do we do then? Wait for Osama to set off his new toy in New York? LA? San Antone?

We ARE making A LOT of progress in the war on terror. Our actions in Afghanistan and Iraq have shown the world that we will do exactly what you say we should do in your last sentence. Libya, long one of our bitter enemies, has opened its doors and has agreed to halt its own WMD development operations. Iran and North Korea are now sweating too. Did you know that North Korea refused for a long time to even come to the negotiating table to talk about nukes and WMDs with us? They came back to the table after we toppled Saddam. To say that Iraq is the only place we're expending resources in the war on terror is just plain incorrect, and I think you know that.
 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  
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Offline ziggy

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Bush's flip-flops
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2004, 12:23:30 PM »
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The thing is that this isn't what Bush is commited to....his commitment is to maintaining power, control and monetary rewards for himself & his posse.  Bush is not out after terrorism....if he was then we would make large number of hit and run attacks around the world.  We are not attacking terrorist training sites or fighting nations that support terrorists.  We are not ferreting out supporters and taking them out.  We are mired in a Vietnam-like war based on eliminating one man (mission accomplished) that we have no chance of winning and costing hundreds of lives weekly.
 
Iraq is Not Vietnam, It's Guadalcanal
Learning the real lessons history has for today's war on terror.
by Powl Smith
09/24/2004 12:00:00 AM

PUNDITS THESE DAYS are quick to compare the fighting in Iraq with the American loss in Vietnam 30 years ago. Terms like "quagmire" evoke the Southeast Asian jungle, where America's technological advantages were negated and committed Vietnamese guerrillas wore down the U.S. will to fight.

People love to draw historical analogies because they seem to offer a sort of analytical proof--after all, doesn't history repeat itself? In fact, such comparisons do have value, but like statistics, it's possible to find a historical analogy to suit any argument. And Vietnam's the wrong one for Iraq.

In fact, World War II is a far more accurate comparison for the global war we are waging to defeat terrorism. Both wars began for the United States with a catastrophic sneak attack from an undeclared enemy. We had many faint and not-so-faint warnings of the impending Japanese assault on Pearl Harbor, not least the historical precedent of Port Arthur in 1904, when the Japanese launched a preemptive strike against Russia. We had similar ill-defined warnings and precedents about al Qaeda and Islamist terrorism (the East Africa embassy bombings in 1998; the USS Cole bombing in 2000), but in 2001 as in 1941, we lacked the "hard" intelligence requisite to convince a country at peace that it was about to pitched into war.

Historical apologists say that the Japanese were "forced" to attack us because we were strangling their trade in Asia. Sound familiar? American foreign policy in the Middle East is responsible for the anger and rage  
that has stirred up al Qaeda, right? In fact, there is a crucial similarity between the Japanese imperialism of 50 years ago and Islamic fundamentalism of today: both are totalitarian, anti-Western ideologies that cannot be appeased.

As Japan amassed victory after victory in the early days of the war, America and our allies could see that we had a long, hard slog ahead of us. Americans understood there was no recourse but to win, despite the fearful cost. This was the first and foremost lesson of World War II that applies today: Wars of national survival are not quick, not cheap, and not bloodless.

In one of our first counteroffensives against the Japanese, U.S. troops landed on the island of Guadalcanal in order to capture a key airfield. We surprised the Japanese with our speed and audacity, and with very little fighting seized the airfield. But the Japanese recovered from our initial success, and began a long, brutal campaign to force us off Guadalcanal and recapture it. The Japanese were very clever and absolutely committed to sacrificing everything for their beliefs. (Only three Japanese surrendered after six months of combat--a statistic that should put today's Islamic radicals to shame.) The United States suffered 6,000 casualties during the six-month Guadalcanal campaign; Japan, 24,000. It was a very expensive airfield.

Which brings us to the next lesson of World War II: Totalitarian enemies have to be bludgeoned into submission, and the populations that support them have to be convinced they can't win. This is a bloody and difficult business. In the Pacific theater, we eventually learned our enemies' tactics--jungle and amphibious warfare, carrier task forces, air power--and far surpassed them. But that victory took four years and cost many hundreds of thousands of casualties.

Iraq isn't Vietnam, it's Guadalcanal--one campaign of many in a global war to defeat the terrorists and their sponsors. Like the United States in the Pacific in 1943, we are in a war of national survival that will be long, hard, and fraught with casualties. We lost the first battle of that war on September 11, 2001, and we cannot now afford to walk away from the critical battle we are fighting in Iraq any more than we could afford to walk away from Guadalcanal. For the security of America, we have no recourse but to win.

Lieutenant Colonel Powl Smith, U.S. Army, is the former chief of counterterrorism plans at U.S. European Command and is currently in Baghdad with Multi-National Forces-Iraq.
 
 
 
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

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Offline Lurker

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Bush's flip-flops
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2004, 12:26:47 PM »
No we are not fighting a war on terror in Iraq.  We are fighting against Iraqis who don't want us there.  So Iraq or more specifically Saddam supported terrorism.  Find we took him out....time to leave.  We have no business trying to establish a govt for a people that we don't understand.

The Vietnam reference wasn't to the number of deaths but to the unwinnable situation with no exit strategy while people keep dying.  Talk about not understanding history...no wonder we are bound to repeat it.

As far as blowing up a few tents....well if those tents hold terrorist then good riddence.  If those tents cover up arms then good riddence.  But how about taking out safe house where ever they may be...even in the middle of large cities.  And I don't care if the terrorists are Muslims, Turkish, Russian, German or even Americans...take them out.

As far as the Michael Moorish comment....I suppose you actually believe the bullcrap that Bush & cronies spit out in regards to this whole mess.  We aren't fighting terrorism in Iraq...we never were.  We went into Iraq to take out Saddam.  We did it and now are clueless on how to exit.  The main reason that US soldiers are being targeted in Iraq is that they are so visible and easy targets.  Calling comments that you don't agree with extremism can go either way.  My comment stands....Bush is not committed to eliminating terrorists.  His commitment is to retaining power and monetary rewards....and I didn't need Moore to enlighten me.  I saw the same "principles" when he was governor of Texas.

If we are truly going to take the initiative and fight a war on terror then do it.  Not this bullcrap of picking a country we don't like the leader, eliminate him and bog down into an unwinnable war.  This is exactly what happened in Vietnam...we went into a situation we didn't understand, eventually alienated the people we were supposedly saving and ended up running with our tail between our legs because we had no exit strategy.  And make no mistake we left Vietnam defeated in the eyes of many people in the world.

And finally...believe it or not....this has absolutely nothing to do with Kerry in my mind.  I don't think he will make a good president.  But at the same time I think the one we have is one of the worst in history.
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Offline Ted

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Bush's flip-flops
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2004, 03:12:07 PM »
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Calling comments that you don't agree with extremism can go either way.

I believe I called it "Michael Moorish bullcrap." I don't think Michael Moore is extreme. I think he is a very calculating, talented, driven teller of half truths and lies.

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No we are not fighting a war on terror in Iraq.  We are fighting against Iraqis who don't want us there.  So Iraq or more specifically Saddam supported terrorism.  Find we took him out....time to leave.

According to intelligence reports, most of the people who are behind the insurgency are foreigners, like Zarqawi, who is Jordanian. The major exception is al-Sadr, the Shi'ite cleric in Najaf. There are many Iraqis, according to some Utah guard buddies of mine, who are glad Saddam is gone and some kind of democracy is on the horizon, even though they don't like the destabilizing effects of the US' actions.

Take him out and then leave? Have you ever heard of the term "power vacuum." If only such decisions could be so simplistic and easy.

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The Vietnam reference wasn't to the number of deaths but to the unwinnable situation with no exit strategy while people keep dying.

No exit strategy? Are we back to the deliberate ignorance thing here? I've read, heard, and seen a lot of information on our exit strategy. There are dates set for free elections, we have an interim Iraqi government that seems to be doing a pretty good job, and we have a rough timetable of when we can hand over security responsibilities. Although I won't dispute that it's not perfect, there certainly IS an exit strategy.

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As far as blowing up a few tents....well if those tents hold terrorist then good riddence.  If those tents cover up arms then good riddence.  But how about taking out safe house where ever they may be...even in the middle of large cities.  And I don't care if the terrorists are Muslims, Turkish, Russian, German or even Americans...take them out.

I guess you're not getting my point. Why stomp on a guy's toe when you can cut off his head. Bombing terrorist camps is like trying to get rid of an anthill in your yard by stepping on one ant every day. If a government is supporting or hiding terrorists, we take them out, even if might, perish the thought, require some dirty work.

I agree with you that we don't let them feel secure in their hiding places, and when we find a camp or safe house, we take it out. But that CANNOT be our major strategy in fighting terrorism.

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We did it and now are clueless on how to exit.

Seriously, where do you get this stuff? We're clueless? According to whom? Stewart Smalley? It's amazing to me how desperately some people WANT to believe that we will fail in Iraq. No matter that failure is the one thing the people actually doing the work hate to think about. But if we fail, maybe we can get rid of the "worst President in history."

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The main reason that US soldiers are being targeted in Iraq is that they are so visible and easy targets.

What am I supposed to get from this comment? Of course they're visible, but I wouldn't call them easy targets. You act as if insurgents roam and murder our soldiers with impunity. They pay the price for attacking our soldiers, and their casualty rates are much higher than ours. How insulting to those troops to act as if they're helpless over there.

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Bush is not committed to eliminating terrorists.  His commitment is to retaining power and monetary rewards

Where are you getting this? Is this your interpretation of the administration's actions? Monetary rewards? Bush invaded Iraq to get rich? What did he do as governor to convince you of this? Seriously, this sounds pretty Moorish to me. Where's the proof?

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And finally...believe it or not....this has absolutely nothing to do with Kerry in my mind.  I don't think he will make a good president.  But at the same time I think the one we have is one of the worst in history.

Sorry, shouldn't have brought Kerry into it. I don't think he'll make a good president either.
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