Author Topic: Poll: Give the dude a Gold Medal?  (Read 3503 times)

Offline Reality

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Poll: Give the dude a Gold Medal?
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2004, 02:25:22 PM »
Quote
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/olym....gym/index.html

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/olym...ging/index.html

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/olym...andi/index.html
for some reason i get blanks 1/2 the time and the page and E.M. Swift article appears the other half.  

Swifts "I said it therefore it must be and it's concluded" attitude hardly makes him impartial.
Articles give reasons on why Hamm should keep medal.  Give no explaination of when SKoreans were told of the judging error or their response to their alleged lateness in filing a complaint.  Also their response to Swifts alleging that points should be deducted due to SKors grabbing the bar 4 instead of 3.

Im going to contact SKorea for their version.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2004, 02:27:33 PM by Reality »

Offline Ted

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Poll: Give the dude a Gold Medal?
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2004, 02:57:11 PM »
Reality,

I didn't read that kind of attitude from Swift. But then again, I don't have any preconcieved notions in favor of one side of this issue. I thought his reasoning was pretty solid and logical, and his attacks on other journalists for sensationalizing the whole affair and placing the responsibility for the judges' errors on Hamm were warranted. In his ridiculous column on this story, MSNBC's Mike Celizic went so far as to place the burden of America's poor perception around the world on one gymnast who wanted to hang on to his gold medal, a medal he had worked for and dreamed of since he was a young child.

Also, it's not anyone's job to INFORM the South Korean's of anything. The judges determine start value in real time, while the routine is being performed. It's not some pre-assigned value that the gymnast hands to the judges on a piece of paper. It's determined based on what the two "Group A" judges see the gymnast do during the routine; thus, it IS a subjective measure. The coaches are responsible for making sure their athlete is awarded the correct start value after the routine. If they are to lodge a protest, they are supposed to do it before the beginning of the next rotation. According to the reports, the South Koreans claim they DID lodge a protest before the end of the rotation and were told to file a protest letter after the competition; the judges say they DID NOT file a protest. If the Koreans DID protest in time and the judges told the Koreans to write a letter, the judges blatantly broke the rules by refusing to hear their protest.

I tend to believe the judges in this case because several other countries lodged protests on start values and each were addressed before the next rotation. But suddenly the judges ignore the rule they've been following the entire meet and say, "naw, just write a letter." I don't buy it. I think the South Korean coaches screwed up by not noticing the start value and are trying to save face. Saving face is big to a Korean, every bit as big as it is to an American.

To take it further, the FIG broke its own rules when it went back (after the competition was over and the medals were awarded) and reviewed video (which is NEVER supposed to happen according to the FIG's own rules). Of course, while they review the video they conveniently ignore one mistake that hurts the Korean athlete's score and make an announcement to the international media on the other mistake that could make Paul Hamm's victory seem flawed.

The fact of the matter is, and this seems clear to me, if the judges were perfect and Yang were to receive an impartial and perfectly fair score, he might not have even won a bronze medal.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2004, 03:02:07 PM by Ted »
"You take him Perk!" ~Kevin Garnett

"I think the responsibility the Democrats have may rest more in resisting any efforts by Republicans in the Congress or by me when I was President to put some standards in and tighten up a little bit on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac." ~Bill Clinton

Offline Reality

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Poll: Give the dude a Gold Medal?
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2004, 03:21:36 PM »
I certainly see it as a mess and do not advocate Hamm giving it up.

However, this report that SKor would be deducted points and not even get a bronze, did EM Swift have access to the tape?  Upon what does he base this?

Since the SKors allegedly did not provide written complaint, maybe they knew their gymnast grabbed the bar 4 times.  :rolleyes:  :D  

My point is i have yet to read in print the SKors response.   I did read on ESPN a quote from their coach saying a complaint was filed immediately, but the article did not say whether written or verbal.  

However to tell SKor "you might not have won the gold therefore deal with it" is wrong.   He might have also scored even higher, therefore beating Hamm by even more.

Its a mess for sure.  Bottom lining it we don't have all the real facts in front of us.  I just want to hear exact quotes from the SKors.  On the exact points of when they issued the complaint and how.  Judges said no letter.  If SKors say letter, one would think they could produce a copy.

ahhh its over.  No wait, Brazil is going to file for a gold. .... :D
 

Offline Ted

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Poll: Give the dude a Gold Medal?
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2004, 03:39:42 PM »
Reality,

Most of your questions have been answered in various articles and columns on ESPN, CNNsi, and the New York Times.

The Korean's mistake of four holds instead of the max of three was first pointed out by Tim Daggett, former Olympian and color analyst for NBC. Since then, several news outlets and gymnastics experts have weighed in on the mistake. It seems that most people agree that he should have been penalized, well excluding certain columnists and journalists I suppose.

Your point that the Korean might have scored even higher is absolutely spot on, and it is precisely why you can't go back and change the results of a gymnastics meet. These guys don't compete in a vacuum, and you can't say that had the judges not made one mistake that the Korean would have won. In fact he might have lost; he might have one; Hamm might have fallen and broken his neck. There's no way to know. So there's no way to change the result fairly.
"You take him Perk!" ~Kevin Garnett

"I think the responsibility the Democrats have may rest more in resisting any efforts by Republicans in the Congress or by me when I was President to put some standards in and tighten up a little bit on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac." ~Bill Clinton

Offline Reality

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Poll: Give the dude a Gold Medal?
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2004, 05:15:51 PM »
Agreed.

The one point I want to hear on from the South Kors is when do they themselves say complaint(s) were filed and in what form, verbal and/or written.

Bottom line it seems this cannot and will not end fairly for all concerned.
Even if SoKor and Hamm get golds, then the 3rd 4th 5th placers could say "yes but if you went back over our tape" and "if we would have known"...
« Last Edit: August 30, 2004, 05:17:40 PM by Reality »

Offline Ted

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Poll: Give the dude a Gold Medal?
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2004, 05:48:30 PM »
Yup, and that's why this is so jacked up. The FIG royally screwed up by reviewing the tape at all. They have rules against video review of any kind for this exact reason. You open up a shizstorm of whining and what-ifs when you do that.

I'd love to see this Bruno Grandi guy as commish of the NFL. It would have been like Tagliabue coming out after the New England/Oakland overtime game and saying, "Well, I reviewed the tape and have come to the conclusion that Brady actually DID fumble the ball. And I also have determined that had the correct call been made that Oakland would have absolutely won the game . . . but . . . ahhh . . . ummm . . . the results on the field of play stand . . . ahh . . . err . . . that is . . . ahm . . . unless . . . ahem . . . the Patriots would be willing to forfeit their AFC Championship rings in a display of unparalleled sportsmanship, so as to . . . err . . . cover our collective NFL arses."

Sincerely,

Bruno (gutless Euro trash) Grandi

P.S. Reality, for the eighth time, the Koreans say they made a verbal protest before the end of the rotation (according to the rules), and they say the judges told them to file a written protest after the meet. The judges dispute that. It's a case of he/said she/said. I tend to believe the judges, because there had already been a number of identical protests issued and answered during the meet, all within the rules. Why would the judges ignore the rules?

 
"You take him Perk!" ~Kevin Garnett

"I think the responsibility the Democrats have may rest more in resisting any efforts by Republicans in the Congress or by me when I was President to put some standards in and tighten up a little bit on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac." ~Bill Clinton

Offline Reality

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Poll: Give the dude a Gold Medal?
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2004, 06:24:45 PM »
Quote

P.S. Reality, for the eighth time, the Koreans say they made a verbal protest before the end of the rotation (according to the rules), and they say the judges told them to file a written protest after the meet. The judges dispute that. It's a case of he/said she/said. I tend to believe the judges, because there had already been a number of identical protests issued and answered during the meet, all within the rules. Why would the judges ignore the rules?
....the Koreans said the judges told them to file a written protest after the meet. The judges dispute that....

Have the Kors responded to the judges dispute?  B)

I think its now headed to some CAS (Court of Arbitration for Sport) hearing.  In Sweeden.  Do they have platinum haired babe judges?  Update its in Switzerland.
I still think they should have platinum haired babe judges.  Do we agree on that?
They will probably have more sense and reasonableness.

If so MSNBC will get the telecast scheduling right, unlike the NBA Oly fiasco.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2004, 10:46:16 PM by Reality »