Author Topic: "LeBron can't win in Cleveland" Thoughts  (Read 4146 times)

Offline Joe Vancil

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"LeBron can't win in Cleveland" Thoughts
« on: July 11, 2010, 01:56:42 PM »
I'm going to ask you to, for a moment, consider a statement I completely disagree with as fact.  Now for many of you, you're going to already agree with the statement anyway, so it won't be much of a stretch.  Here it is:

"LeBron can't win in Cleveland."

IF LeBron had no chance of winning a title in Cleveland, WHY DIDN'T HE HAVE A CHANCE?

I understand the reasons for LeBron going to Miami, and even agree with a couple, understand a couple more, and think that of the choices he was offered, *IF* he was going to leave Cleveland, EVEN WITHOUT WADE AND BOSH, he picked the right choice.  That's not what my argument is.

Apparently, for some reson, Cleveland is incapable of constructing a winning team.  Except that, to a very high level, they did.  But Cleveland just lost its last two big free agents:  LeBron and Boozer.  Boozer left for the money, but LeBron left for "winning."

In the past 10 years, we've had 5 teams winning titles.  In the 10 years before that, we had 4 - with two being from the previous 10 years.  In the 10 years before that, we had 4 teams in 10 years, only one not in the past 20.  We've had 8 teams win in the past 30 years.  Add Seattle and another Lakers title to that, and that's the whole time-frame I've followed the NBA.

The count:
Los Angeles, 10
Chicago, 6
Boston, 4
San Antonio, 4
Detroit, 3
Houston, 2
Philadelphia, 1
Miami, 1
Seattle, 1

If LeBron can't win in Cleveland, I think it's very fair to say that Nowitzki can't win in Dallas, Deron Williams can't win in Utah, Bosh couldn't have won in Toronto, Chris Paul can't win in New Orleans, Mayo can't win in Memphis, and Nash can't win in Phoenix.

Can Durant win in Oklahoma City?  Seems awfully unlikely, doesn't it?

You do not see people lining up to sign in Milwaukee.  Who is the last major free agent you remember signing in Minnesota? 

Now some of that is an organization question.  When you've got owners like Sterling and Sarver, you're always going to have a few problems trying to achieve at a top level.  But how is it that Dallas has never won a championship, given a favorable situation in terms of owner, and a general willingness to spend?  Why does Cleveland, a team that has been loyal to its stars in the past, lose their free agents because they don't believe they can win?

"Well, you have to have two superstars to win."  Garbage.  Hakeem Olajuwon showed us in 1994 that one superstar was plenty.  And in 2004, Detroit showed us that you didn't even need one, if you played smart, disciplined, team-oriented basketball.

So *WHY* is the idea that you need to superstars to win so prevalent?  Because those big name teams that are always winning are always fielding the two superstars.

Let me ask you this:  there are two teams - let's say Indiana and Chicago.  Indiana has a tradition of treating its revered players well (Reggie Miller, Rik Smits), and Chicago has a tradition of treating its revered players poorly (Pippen, Kukoc, even to an extent, Jordan).  WHICH TEAM is more likely to get a superstar signing?  Why?

I say it's Chicago.  Big city.  Big opportunity to shine in a big spotlight.  AT BEST, Indiana hopes to keep that gem they find in the draft.

When Duncan is gone, how long before San An is irrelevant? 

Right now, BEST CASE, you figure the following teams have a chance to win it all next year, and I'm being generous:

Orlando, Boston, Miami, Chicago
Los Angeles (Lakers - heck, the DODGERS have a better chance of winning the NBA title than the Clippers do), Dallas, San Antonio, Portland (if Oden pans out), and Oklahoma City.

9 teams. Included in those teams are the teams winning the last 6 championships.  6 of the 9 have won before (okay, 5, if you don't count OKC as inheriting Seattle's championship).  Of those 9, Orlando, Chicago, San Antonio, and Portland won the lottery (Howard, Rose, Duncan, Oden), and OKC had Durant as the #2 pick.

Dallas is the only one that adopted the idea, "We're going to spend, not rely on the lottery, and not rely on our history" to get into the championship discussion.  And how many folks around here think Dallas has a *REAL* shot?

In essence, I do not think it is any longer possible for a fringe team - say an Indiana or a New Orleans or a Cleveland - to figure prominently in championship discussion, because they will be unable to acquire 2 top-level players, because just 1 will keep them from getting the second one in the lottery.  They are not attractive enough to free agents.

Now while many of you may love the fact that it's Lakers-Celtics all over again, frankly, I'm disgusted by it.  Skander made the comment that he lost a lot of interest in the NBA after the Lakers acquired Gasol for a bag of stale potato chips.  His words were, "L.A. made a *MISTAKE*.  They traded CARON BUTLER for KWAME BROWN.  If you've got any self-respect, if you're an opposing team, you make them *CHOKE* on that mistake!  But no."

Same thing just happened with the Bosh and James signings.  Both Toronto and Cleveland agreed to sign-and-trades that got them draft picks and trade exceptions.  Bosh and James get rewarded for jumping ship by getting an extra year on their contracts, for rotten picks.  (Unless, of course, the Miami experiment doesn't pan out, and they miss the playoffs.  Then those first rounders might end up in the top 3.  Why not buy a Lotto ticket instead?  Better chance of winning on that.)  Why not make James and Bosh take that one less year?  Does anyone thing that a LeBron-less Cleveland is *NOW* one player away from winning, whereas *WITH* LeBron, they were "can't win?"

The LeBron signing makes me think one thing more than anything else:  there is no longer parity in NBA basketball.  Perhaps there never was, but I was just too optimistic to see the fact.  Either way, professional basketball, which had already gotten boring, just got *MORE* boring.

*SO* that leads us to next year's lockout.  And don't kid yourself.  There *WILL* be a lockout.  Probably a long one.

If I'm Milwaukee, or Minnesota, or Golden State - do I have *ANY* reason to come back quickly?  AT ALL?  Will I have any future chance at being competitive?  *AT* *ALL*?

If I'm one of these teams - and a host of others (including Utah) - here are the demands I'm making, and I'm not settling until I get them.

1)  Hard cap - no cap exceptions.  Only way to level the playing field.  You can get your LeBron James, but you won't team him with Bosh and Wade, because:
2)  Eliminate salary scale.  You can get 75% of the franchise's money.  Good luck finding 11 people willing to take 2% apiece.
3)  Eliminate sign-and-trade advantage:  no extra year on a sign and trade deal, although you can still offer the larger raises.
4)  Eliminate "restricted free agent" status.  You want your player to stay with your organization?  Pay for them.

If you look at any major sport, and ask which is the most competitve, the most exciting, the one where the most teams realistically can think they can win the whole thing, it's NFL Football.  With it's hard cap.

What does that do to teams that have overpaid their Joe Johnsons?  What does that do for teams like Miami, who'll be over the cap and then some by the time they get done?  Picture this:  Miami forced to choose which of Bosh, Wade, or James they're going to have to deal away to get under the hard cap.

I'm absolutely doing this if I'm a "minor" NBA team.  Why would I not?  I want the field more level.  I expect the game to be a fair one.

Cleveland fans and ownership have a right to be angry.  It's not like they've mistreated their past players, been a bunch of bumblers in running the organization, and tried to nickel-and-dime their superstar.  And LeBron James had no obligation to stay if he didn't want to play there.  But if Cleveland assembled a good cast, offered him the moon (and then some), and has always been good to him, don't you think the idea that he'd sign somewhere else wouldn't have been as popular as it was?

I think that the LeBron James signing may be the BIGGEST debate point in negotiating the new CBA that isn't being talked about *AT* *ALL*.
Joe

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Offline Reality

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Re: "LeBron can't win in Cleveland" Thoughts
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2010, 02:59:12 PM »
If LeBron can't win in Cleveland, I think it's very fair to say that Nowitzki can't win in Dallas, Deron Williams can't win in Utah, Bosh couldn't have won in Toronto, Chris Paul can't win in New Orleans, Mayo can't win in Memphis, and Nash can't win in Phoenix.
Agree.

Quote
Can Durant win in Oklahoma City?  Seems awfully unlikely, doesn't it?
yes.  Advance to WCF, yes. 

Quote
"Well, you have to have two superstars to win."  Garbage.  Hakeem Olajuwon showed us in 1994 that one superstar was plenty.  And in 2004, Detroit showed us that you didn't even need one, if you played smart, disciplined, team-oriented basketball.
I'm all for a team beating some prima donnas like Detroit did in 2004, but you've got 25 other years where the teams did have at least two stars.

Quote
Indiana and Chicago.  Indiana has a tradition of treating its revered players well (Reggie Miller, Rik Smits), and Chicago has a tradition of treating its revered players poorly (Pippen, Kukoc, even to an extent, Jordan).  WHICH TEAM is more likely to get a superstar signing?  Why?
Money made outside of salary is far more then salary.

Quote
When Duncan is gone, how long before San An is irrelevant? 
Summer 2007

Quote
Skander made the comment that he lost a lot of interest in the NBA after the Lakers acquired Gasol for a bag of stale potato chips.  His words were, "L.A. made a *MISTAKE*.  They traded CARON BUTLER for KWAME BROWN.  If you've got any self-respect, if you're an opposing team, you make them *CHOKE* on that mistake!  But no."
Most of the intelligent but casual NBA watchers also gave up on the NBA after that trade.

Quote
If I'm one of these teams - and a host of others (including Utah) - here are the demands I'm making, and I'm not settling until I get them.

1)  Hard cap - no cap exceptions.  Only way to level the playing field.  You can get your LeBron James, but you won't team him with Bosh and Wade, because:
2)  Eliminate salary scale.  You can get 75% of the franchise's money.  Good luck finding 11 people willing to take 2% apiece.
3)  Eliminate sign-and-trade advantage:  no extra year on a sign and trade deal, although you can still offer the larger raises.
4)  Eliminate "restricted free agent" status.  You want your player to stay with your organization?  Pay for them.
Get some kind of lifetime insurance coverage so the NBA can't screw over it's injured players like the NFL does and I'm down.

Cleveland fans and ownership have a right to be angry.  It's not like they've mistreated their past players, been a bunch of bumblers in running the organization, and tried to nickel-and-dime their superstar.  And LeBron James had no obligation to stay if he didn't want to play there.  But if Cleveland assembled a good cast, offered him the moon (and then some), and has always been good to him, don't you think the idea that he'd sign somewhere else wouldn't have been as popular as it was?
Look at the attendance and financial stats for Cleveland before and after LeBron.
The Cavs owner just did a knee jerk reaction and i think he will regret what he said.



Offline westkoast

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Re: "LeBron can't win in Cleveland" Thoughts
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2010, 04:25:39 AM »
Ill start with the basic question and then respond to the rest later tomorrow or this week.  You did an excellent job of putting this thread/argument together for the off-season.  Props for that.

Why can't Lebron win in Cleveland?  Two comments.

1) He had the unfornuate luck, like many other NBA greats, of hitting much better teams the first 7 seasons of his career.

Much like Michael Jordan in the 1980s and Malone/Stock in the 1990s he  is facing better teams.  Michael was not winning against the Lakers, Celtics, or Pistons.  Stockton and Malone just couldn't beat Jordan.  Once Michael learned the ropes in the playoffs, had a solid coach, Chicago established a core and got experience as a leader the Bulls took off.  This was around the same time e the power house teams were fading and the league was shifting to the next era.  Honestly Lebron could have been primed for that same situation with Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Shaq, etc all fading out of the league in the next few years.   The Cavs lost to a much better, well oiled, championship team in the Spurs.   Not because they had sub par personnel but because they were not a core unit who had been together for a long period of time with past experience to rely on like the Spurs.  How many players have been moved in and out of the Cavs organization since Lebron has been there?  If they made it to the finals they would have played against a Laker team who has been together for 5 years (not including Pau who had been there for 2 1/2 now and Ron Artest)

2) The team wasn't going to win because Lebron didn't think they could.   His decision to team up with 2 other stars I think makes that point even more.

They had a legit shot to beat the Celtics.  Going into the match up most fans and nba pundits picked the Cavs as the better team.  After the first round stomping the Cavs put on there was questions of how quick they would win the title on ESPN.  Had the team won that pivotal game in which Lebron was caught being a space cadet they could have held on to get to the finals.  So it wasn't that the team sucked like many people (media and otherwise) have said.  They were missing leadership from one of the best players in the game.  If the guy on the team who makes or breaks games is not paying attention then why would any of them think they had any shot in the world to win?

In addition to that, why was Dwayne Wade actively recruiting for his franchise and Lebron was not doing the same for Cleveland?   He gave up on Cleveland mentally before the Celtics series even ended so he wasn't going to recruit.  He never wanted to stay.  Had he won the championship he would have been forced to stay in Cleveland.   The reason Bosh signed to Miami is because Wade was recruiting for that team.  It was a solid place.  If Lebron called Chris Bosh and said 'I am staying in Cleveland' I think Bosh would have bolted to Cleveland.  That is of course assuming they are serious about winning and South Beach wasn't picked based on the party factor.

« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 04:36:52 AM by westkoast »
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Offline Derek Bodner

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Re: "LeBron can't win in Cleveland" Thoughts
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2010, 09:58:48 AM »
Quote
why was Dwayne Wade actively recruiting for his franchise and Lebron was not doing the same for Cleveland?

Well, there's a lot of reasons, but a very big one is that they didn't have the resources to bring in others, whereas Wade did.  it's not like Wade was recruiting high priced talent before they got cap space.

Offline westkoast

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Re: "LeBron can't win in Cleveland" Thoughts
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2010, 11:19:32 AM »
Quote
why was Dwayne Wade actively recruiting for his franchise and Lebron was not doing the same for Cleveland?

Well, there's a lot of reasons, but a very big one is that they didn't have the resources to bring in others, whereas Wade did.  it's not like Wade was recruiting high priced talent before they got cap space.

Why wouldn't Cleveland have the money to sign Chris Bosh when they were getting Shaq's massive contract off the books this season?
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Offline Joe Vancil

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Re: "LeBron can't win in Cleveland" Thoughts
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2010, 01:30:47 PM »
Quote
why was Dwayne Wade actively recruiting for his franchise and Lebron was not doing the same for Cleveland?

Well, there's a lot of reasons, but a very big one is that they didn't have the resources to bring in others, whereas Wade did.  it's not like Wade was recruiting high priced talent before they got cap space.

Why wouldn't Cleveland have the money to sign Chris Bosh when they were getting Shaq's massive contract off the books this season?

All things are not equal.  Just because Shaq makes Z million and his contract expires doesn't mean you have Z million to spend.  If you're below the cap, you've got Cap - cap_commitment to spend, unless you have exceptions to use.  If you're above the cap, you've only got the exceptions.

So, let's say the cap is $60m, Cleveland's payroll is $70m (with Shaq), and Shaq's contract is $15m.  70-15 = 55, meaning you've only got $ 5m to spend.  Of course, since you have Shaq's Bird Rights, you can sign him for anything from veteran's minimum to the absolute max.  But you can only offer Bosh (in that scenario) $ 5m.
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Offline westkoast

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Re: "LeBron can't win in Cleveland" Thoughts
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2010, 02:32:04 PM »
Quote
why was Dwayne Wade actively recruiting for his franchise and Lebron was not doing the same for Cleveland?

Well, there's a lot of reasons, but a very big one is that they didn't have the resources to bring in others, whereas Wade did.  it's not like Wade was recruiting high priced talent before they got cap space.

Why wouldn't Cleveland have the money to sign Chris Bosh when they were getting Shaq's massive contract off the books this season?

All things are not equal.  Just because Shaq makes Z million and his contract expires doesn't mean you have Z million to spend.  If you're below the cap, you've got Cap - cap_commitment to spend, unless you have exceptions to use.  If you're above the cap, you've only got the exceptions.

So, let's say the cap is $60m, Cleveland's payroll is $70m (with Shaq), and Shaq's contract is $15m.  70-15 = 55, meaning you've only got $ 5m to spend.  Of course, since you have Shaq's Bird Rights, you can sign him for anything from veteran's minimum to the absolute max.  But you can only offer Bosh (in that scenario) $ 5m.

I understand that.  However Cleveland's pay roll was 79 million and Shaq's contract was 21.  So while 5 million doesnt sound close, 11 million does.  Only a few more moves and they could have made the space to resign Lebron and bring in Bosh.  A deal could have been done.  I brought up Shaq's contract because there was some breathing room to where they could have made a push HAD Lebron actually wanted to stay.  The owner was willing to shell out 80 million a year.

It was clear Wade was going to stay in Miami but was feeling other teams out to see what they were pitching to Lebron/Bosh.  I don't think anyone could say they thought Lebron was going to stay in Cleveland with the way he was acting after the early playoff exit.  So from Bosh's stand point it was easier to pick a team with a star rather than wait around to see where another star was going to sign.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 02:38:41 PM by westkoast »
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Offline Wolverine

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Re: "LeBron can't win in Cleveland" Thoughts
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2010, 01:47:43 AM »
If you look at any major sport, and ask which is the most competitve, the most exciting, the one where the most teams realistically can think they can win the whole thing, it's NFL Football.

Only 7 Different Teams have won the Larry O'Brien Trophy during (David Stern's) 26 year tenure; whereas MLB has had 18 different teams win the World Series in that same 26 year span, the NFL has had 15 different teams win the Super Bowl during that span, and the NHL has had 14 different teams win the Stanley Cup Finals during that span (excluding the 2004?2005 NHL lockout).
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Offline westkoast

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Re: "LeBron can't win in Cleveland" Thoughts
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2010, 10:55:14 AM »
Quote
Let me ask you this:  there are two teams - let's say Indiana and Chicago.  Indiana has a tradition of treating its revered players well (Reggie Miller, Rik Smits), and Chicago has a tradition of treating its revered players poorly (Pippen, Kukoc, even to an extent, Jordan).  WHICH TEAM is more likely to get a superstar signing?  Why?

I say it's Chicago.  Big city.  Big opportunity to shine in a big spotlight.  AT BEST, Indiana hopes to keep that gem they find in the draft.

The idea of playing in a big market as oppose to a small comes into play when guys have egos.  Since 90% of all the top basketball players in the league have one it makes sense they go after bigger markets for attention.  There is one thing to add to the idea of location and it is what happens outside of the basketball court.  When you factor in Chicago (windy, humid, COLD) versus Los Angeles or Miami (great climates all year round) a player or most people for that matter would pick the cities by the beach.  When you compare Chicago's more pub heavy night life to Miami and Los Angeles 'clubbin with the stars' vibe people will gravitate to these areas.  Shaq even left the nice weather and tax break of Florida to come to Los Angeles so he could further his non-basketball attempts at entertainment.  Only to return to Miami eventually and re-jump start his nightlife by partying heavy in Miami (he made a comment that he was surprised they won the title cuz they partied so much).  As us regular people do with our own jobs/careers they factor in what the area is like for times when they want to have fun.  Not that you can't have fun in a small town but it's very very VERY safe to say that Sacramento doesn't have the same amount of things going on as Miami.

Whats crazy is that the New York Knicks are so bad and have been so terribly managed since they were popular in the 90s that not even the lure of a global city can get free agents to flock there.  If the Suns didn't push Amare out he might not have even left that crap hole Phoenix for New York City.


If you look at any major sport, and ask which is the most competitve, the most exciting, the one where the most teams realistically can think they can win the whole thing, it's NFL Football.

Only 7 Different Teams have won the Larry O'Brien Trophy during (David Stern's) 26 year tenure; whereas MLB has had 18 different teams win the World Series in that same 26 year span, the NFL has had 15 different teams win the Super Bowl during that span, and the NHL has had 14 different teams win the Stanley Cup Finals during that span (excluding the 2004?2005 NHL lockout).

Very interesting and I don't quite know what to make of this.  Does anyone feel that this has to do with the way the NBA heavily markets individuals moreso than any other sport and that the game was very much one of one on one isolation for a long stretch there ??
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 10:58:27 AM by westkoast »
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Offline Wolverine

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Re: "LeBron can't win in Cleveland" Thoughts
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2010, 11:44:43 AM »

If you look at any major sport, and ask which is the most competitve, the most exciting, the one where the most teams realistically can think they can win the whole thing, it's NFL Football.

Only 7 Different Teams have won the Larry O'Brien Trophy during (David Stern's) 26 year tenure; whereas MLB has had 18 different teams win the World Series in that same 26 year span, the NFL has had 15 different teams win the Super Bowl during that span, and the NHL has had 14 different teams win the Stanley Cup Finals during that span (excluding the 2004?2005 NHL lockout).

Very interesting and I don't quite know what to make of this.  Does anyone feel that this has to do with the way the NBA heavily markets individuals moreso than any other sport and that the game was very much one of one on one isolation for a long stretch there ??

I was thinking about this, and I believe it's because basketball's the one sport that can be dominated by one player.  Any franchise that has one of the top five or ten players in history (Celts/Russell in the 60s, Bulls/Jordan in the 90s) is going to win multiple titles.
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Offline Reality

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Re: "LeBron can't win in Cleveland" Thoughts
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2010, 01:31:27 AM »
If you look at any major sport, and ask which is the most competitve, the most exciting, the one where the most teams realistically can think they can win the whole thing, it's NFL Football.

Only 7 Different Teams have won the Larry O'Brien Trophy during (David Stern's) 26 year tenure; whereas MLB has had 18 different teams win the World Series in that same 26 year span, the NFL has had 15 different teams win the Super Bowl during that span, and the NHL has had 14 different teams win the Stanley Cup Finals during that span (excluding the 2004?2005 NHL lockout).
Not that the NFL does not create it's own problems.
OUs rookie Bradford getting 50 million guaranteed from the Rams.
Unreal.