Shaq is back -- but what does it say?

[Randy]

What does it say when a player has to get TRADED to be challenged to get into shape?  This isn't just once that Shaq has been traded because he refuses to get into game shape but TWICE now.  How many superstars get traded twice and teams feel lucky to have gotten rid of the superstar? 

Shaq will go down as the most dominant player in the post but how good could he have been if he had the drive and self-motivation of an MJ or Kobe?  We have seen him get complacent, put on weight and refuse to get into shape so that his team decides "let's get whatever we can for him and get out from under his huge contract."

Does this affect his legacy?  The way he will be remembered?

How many other superstars ended up unhappy in three teams and ended up playing for four teams? 

I'm disappointed that Shaq is in this kind of shape for the Suns when he couldn't get motivated to get in this kind of shape in Miami.  He came into the season out-of-shape -- it makes me wonder what Wade must be thinking right now.

[westkoast]

Heres my take....

In general: Him coming back and hustling that hard makes him look bad.  Real bad.    He would have thrown this season away had he stayed on Miami and it's clear he is not quite as hurt as he was in a Heat uniform, magically he got better.  Id be highly disappointed with anyone on this board if they didn't think lesser of Shaq after this whole deal.

Last night: He looked better then I thought towards the end of the game.  I think everyone (D'Antoni included) thought he would run out of gas down the stretch.  He didn't, he hustled, I'm not quite sure you will see that in every game from him though.  Being "fresh" after you've taken the first half of the year off is almost expected for a pro player IMO.

I do see a problem though.  While Amare Stoudamire is going to benefit a great deal from Shaq for many many reasons...the rest of the guys are not.  They are not a half court basketball team.  The shooters are in rhythm type shooters.  Not stand, wait for Shaq to pass it out, and shoot.  He is not going to be able to replace what Marion brought each and every game.  The experiment is really not going to improve to a championship level in 30 games.   Shaq saying he wants and thinks they can win back to back championships was beyond a joke and pretty delusional.

[Lurker]

Shaq was motivated last night...first game in new uni, against Lakers/PJ/Kobe, national TV...everything that makes Shaq the entertainer that he is.  So his play was inspired but I wonder if he can maintain that inspiration for 3-4 months.  I saw bits and pieces of the game but there were some troubling things IMO from the Suns point of view.  Shaq caught the ball away from his comfort zone a lot...high post or too far out on the wing.  I also noticed what koast did...that Shaq turns the offense into a stand and watch Shaq while waiting for the kickout.  And the Suns don't have good spot up 3 point shooters.

Defensively I think Shaq was spared a lot of embarrasment.  The Lakers don't run a lot of pick and roll with their PG.  The Spurs, Jazz, & Hornets will attack the Shaq/Nash defensive combo relentlessly.  Parker/Duncan, Williams/Boozer and Paul/West will eat them alive IMO. 

  Id be highly disappointed with anyone on this board if they didn't think lesser of Shaq after this whole deal.

As a player I think about the same...Shaq was probably the most dominating center ever.  As a person I already held Shaq in the lowest esteem.  So this incident didn't make me think lesser of Shaq but instead validated my feelings about him all along.  Sorry to disappoint you koast.   

[WayOutWest]

Heres my take....

In general: Him coming back and hustling that hard makes him look bad.  Real bad.    He would have thrown this season away had he stayed on Miami and it's clear he is not quite as hurt as he was in a Heat uniform, magically he got better.  Id be highly disappointed with anyone on this board if they didn't think lesser of Shaq after this whole deal.

It does suck for his previous teams, Lakers and Heat, that Shaq's poor seasons were by choice.  I his current contract will be his last.  I doubt a THIRD team is going to fall for the Shaq "bait and switch".  The good news for the Suns is they will probably get two season worth of "effort" before the Big Illusionist shows up.

Last night: He looked better then I thought towards the end of the game.  I think everyone (D'Antoni included) thought he would run out of gas down the stretch.  He didn't, he hustled, I'm not quite sure you will see that in every game from him though.  Being "fresh" after you've taken the first half of the year off is almost expected for a pro player IMO.

Shaq did take a shot at himself by stating he was ready for his college basketball 30 game season.

I do see a problem though.  While Amare Stoudamire is going to benefit a great deal from Shaq for many many reasons...the rest of the guys are not.  They are not a half court basketball team.  The shooters are in rhythm type shooters.  Not stand, wait for Shaq to pass it out, and shoot.  He is not going to be able to replace what Marion brought each and every game.  The experiment is really not going to improve to a championship level in 30 games.   Shaq saying he wants and thinks they can win back to back championships was beyond a joke and pretty delusional.

With the exception of the Maion comment, I completely disagree, for that matter Marion could not provide what Shaq is providing for the Suns.  Shaq did not slow the Suns down, the scored 124 points for that matter.  It is possible that the adreneline will wear off and Shaq and the Suns won't be as energetic but the Suns looked just fine for most of the game, very Showtime if you ask me.   The Suns shooters ARE stand around shooters, they don't create thier own shots.  Nash breaks down the D and then passes out to the open shooters most of the time or they drift to the line on a fast break when they can't get a layup, that did not change with Shaq in the lineup.  Shaq is the perfect post player for them since for some reason he still demands double teams.  What different rythm do you have, as a spot up shooter, if the ball is comming from a stationary Shaq than if it came from a driving Nash?  Shaq's presence in the paint was a major advantage for the Suns because it freed up Amare to dominate, he had something like 37/15 because there were sometimes three guys around Shaq.  While Shaq got away with ALOT of fouls he did make it extreemly tough for the Lakers on the boards.  I think Shaq will get into alot more foul trouble when he faces a marquee big man like TD who will get the calls on Shaq that Gasol, Odom and Turiaf did not get.  Shaq should have fouled out of the game, as should have Amare with his offensive clear outs on shots.  The current Suns would CREAM the Kwame Lakers, lucky for the Lakers Gasol had a very good night as well, as much as Kobe determines the fate of the Lakers Gasol has become the difference maker.

[westkoast]

With the exception of the Maion comment, I completely disagree, for that matter Marion could not provide what Shaq is providing for the Suns.  Shaq did not slow the Suns down, the scored 124 points for that matter.

That they did.  They were around the same they were on the fast break as well.  The 124 points is deceiving because the Lakers played weak defense.  How many un contested jumpers did Nash and Hill get?   There was a number of times, Shaq admitted to this as well in his press conference, that they fell into the watch Shaq mode.  While they did have TWO plays where he made nice passes he had 20 something touches last night.  Can you honestly tell me that they looked as quick and shove it down your throat type offense you normally see from them?

It is possible that the adreneline will wear off and Shaq and the Suns won't be as energetic but the Suns looked just fine for most of the game, very Showtime if you ask me.   The Suns shooters ARE stand around shooters, they don't create thier own shots. 

They are run down the court, get an open shot when the defense is not set, type shooters.  They are not stand around shooters who shoot well in a half court stand around and shoot with the defense set shooters.  The one stand around shooter on this squad is Eric P and they NEVER play him.  There was really no drive and kick while it was a 3 on 2 or a 4 on 3 situation.  Id love to give a lot of credit to the Lakers transition defense but PHX gave them all the time to get back.  The pre-Shaq Suns would have exploited the Lakers transition defense a lot more.

Nash breaks down the D and then passes out to the open shooters most of the time or they drift to the line on a fast break when they can't get a layup, that did not change with Shaq in the lineup.

Right and that keeps the defense from being set.  If Shaq doesn't command a double team, which he shouldn't as long as DJ Benga doesn't suit up for every Western Conference team each night PHX is in town, the defense is set.  Really Shaq doesn't need a double team.  Let him score all the points he wants.  Keep the ball out of Nash and Amare's hands as much as possible.  Eventually Shaq will get tired and the other guys will have to flip the switch quick.

I know you are and always have been a big Shaq fan but lets be honest here.  He is older.  Why people think a guy who is going to end up playing 20 minutes a game is going to make them a championship team when the game is 48 minutes long, baffles me.  What makes it worse is when Shaq asks for people to "hate on him" by saying his goal is to get two more rings with the Suns.

[rickortreat]

It says that Phoenix made a smart move, and are positioned to win the Championship.  On the offensive end Shaq did exactly what he needed to do.  The Suns were effective in their half-court offense.  Amare had more room to drive and fewer people to guard him.  Nash had open lanes to pass into.  Players were getting easy baskets off of passes out of the middle.

The Suns need to work on their defense- something that will take time, and probably a lot of work by D'Antoni, as the Suns never were committed to defense and will not win the title without it.

Shaq makes them a better team in the post, but it's going to take some time for the Suns to learn how to use him to best advantage.

I'd expect whining Lakers fans to criticize anything that Shaq does, but it's all sour grapes.  Shaq is clearly the key to the Suns future.  And will be the difference maker for them in the playoffs.  He was hurt in Miami, and had time to convalece, but all Laker fans say is that he was dogging it in Miami, even though he was out for several weeks. 

The West doesn't belong to any team right now. The Spurs are just another team competing for a title, along with the Lakers, Mavericks, Spurs and Suns.  New Orleans is just as good as any of them, and Denver and Utah are both very good. Only Denver has managed to beat Boston.

[Reality]

Haven't seen Shaq hustle like that since he was on the Orlando Magic.

Had some great moments, ie jumping out of bounds and saving the ball then slamming it off Turiaf to maintain Suns possession.
His jump hooks were great too.

Offense, Nash forced it to Shaq too many times.  By that i mean force fed the pass into Shaq then stood around, when in reality Shaq was drawing attention (just like Suns wanted him to) and it was perfect time for Nash to drive and create a shot, be it for himself or a teamate.  Too obvious on "we're going to Shaq no matter what" on several possesions.

But, that's good and bad for the Suns.  They can work on this and Nash will figure out when to and not too toss into Shaq.  They already had that nice lob ball dunk.
Also some good passes beteen Shaq and Stoudamire.  Not enought but that can only go up.

Defense.  I thought Shraq did well.  Kobmes not gonna shoot 65% for a series.  But agree the pick n roller teams are gonna test Shaq big time.  Phx either adjusts or gets beat.  And I don't know how they are going to adust unless they put Stoudamire on the opponents big roller.  

I also highly doubt Shaq will keep this up for 3-4 months, but if D 'Antoni acts smartly he will bring Shaq along Bob Horry style.  Get his going for the playoffs where back to backers hardly ever happen.

To me it's still looking potentially very good for Suns playoffs, cats still out.

[westkoast]

It says that Phoenix made a smart move, and are positioned to win the Championship.  On the offensive end Shaq did exactly what he needed to do.  The Suns were effective in their half-court offense.  Amare had more room to drive and fewer people to guard him.  Nash had open lanes to pass into.  Players were getting easy baskets off of passes out of the middle.

The Suns need to work on their defense- something that will take time, and probably a lot of work by D'Antoni, as the Suns never were committed to defense and will not win the title without it.

Shaq makes them a better team in the post, but it's going to take some time for the Suns to learn how to use him to best advantage.

I'd expect whining Lakers fans to criticize anything that Shaq does, but it's all sour grapes.  Shaq is clearly the key to the Suns future.  And will be the difference maker for them in the playoffs.  He was hurt in Miami, and had time to convalece, but all Laker fans say is that he was dogging it in Miami, even though he was out for several weeks. 

The West doesn't belong to any team right now. The Spurs are just another team competing for a title, along with the Lakers, Mavericks, Spurs and Suns.  New Orleans is just as good as any of them, and Denver and Utah are both very good. Only Denver has managed to beat Boston.

The irony of YOU talking about sour grapes when that is what fuels your new found love for Shaq after bashing him to DEATH when the Lakers/Sixers met up in the finals.  Please point out where anything that was mentioned was off base about Shaq.  They are talking about championship so they are being held to high standards due to their own comments.   They lost to the Lakers 2 times with out Shaq and lost 1 time with Shaq...yet they are a championship team and the Lakers are not Rick?  Again...funny you mention sour grapes.

He was so hurt in Miami...we can clearly see he was aching when he sprinted up the floor after a bad goal tending call 

[westkoast]

Offense, Nash forced it to Shaq too many times.  By that i mean force fed the pass into Shaq then stood around, when in reality Shaq was drawing attention (just like Suns wanted him to) and it was perfect time for Nash to drive and create a shot, be it for himself or a teamate.  Too obvious on "we're going to Shaq no matter what" on several possesions.

This is exactly why I mentioned he slowed them down.  Instead of running the ball down the Lakers throats they played into the Lakers strength by trying to force feed it to Shaq.  I agree with you on this one 100%.  He should be a decoy for Nash. Then once Nash makes the defense shift he can slide over for a simple dunk like he did on a few plays.   They shouldn't try to fully be a half court team when Shaq is on the floor.  They will not win that way.

[msc]

My thoughts on the game and Shaq.  

1.  As noted by westkoast, I have even less respect for him as he was clearly tanking it Miami.  
2.  He played much better than I thought he would, so I'll give him props in that regard, but then I have to rescind some of those props because of #1 above.  It will be interesting to see if he can sustain that level of energy, I doubt it.  Even back in 04 & 05, his last two seasons with the Lakers, he'd really struggle on the second night of back-to-backs.  I don't see that changing 3 years later.    
3.  The Lakers need to improve their defense if they want to have a shot at a title.  Bynum and Ariza's return certainly will help in that cause, but their team defense needs to improve as a whole.  Every player on the floor must step in up a notch on D to get to that next level.  
4.  Grant Hill was really impressive.  He shot a high percentage and found his spots well on the floor.  I'm happy to see him playing well at this stage of his career with all of the injuries he's battled.  
5.  As Lurker pointed out, the Lakers didn't milk the pick and roll enough when Shaq was out there.  They started the game with it with Kobe/Gasol and it was very effective.  As the game went on they ran too much isolation and got away from it.
6.  Why would we ever double Shaq?  We doubled him several times, not only in the low post, but in the high post too a couple of times.  I'd like to see them take their chances with single coverage.  If he get's close enough to the basket he's going to score, but he'll miss a lot of "chippy's" too.  Make him prove he can still score at a hight level before you double.  I can live with 15 points from him on any given night.
7.  While Shaq will improve the Suns interior toughness,  I don't think that will outweigh the loss of their only athletic defender.  Marion was always the guy to defend the oppositions best scorer between the 2 and 4 positions.  He's gone and Phoenix's D is is weaker than it was before.
8.  Kobe Bryant is the best basketball player in the world right now.    

[Reality]

Must have been great and a huge sigh of relief for you Lakers to see Kobes pinky not effecting him at all.

[westkoast]

Must have been great and a huge sigh of relief for you Lakers to see Kobes pinky not effecting him at all.

Not out of the woods but it is nice to see he can still get to the rim with out worrying too much about throwing it down.

And Ill stand by what I say, the Shaq experiment is not going to work.  Not so much to do with what Shaq can or cannot do but more to do with the fact that this team is completely switching up what has been successful 30 games before they are suppose to make their last championship push in the Nash era.

[msc]

I forgot to mention my favorite part of last night?s game.  It was so telling.  ESPN went to the split screen to show Shaq and Amare being interviewed.  Typical Shaq calling Amare his little brother (what is this, his 6th "little brother", if I were Amare I'd feel like one of Charlie Sheen's girlfriends).  Anyway, it was a cute little segment w/Shraq and Amare and meanwhile on the other screen Kobe rips right through the Suns swiss cheese D and jams it with authority.  That was a perfect microcosm of the game, IMO, all hype for the Suns, no substance.