Sixers can move into the playoff picture with a win tonight.

[rickortreat]

Of course the Sixers could upgrade at several positions, Randy.  Every team out there could find several players in the NBA who would be better than who they have, including the Spurs.

No team has the best player at every position.  In these days of diluted talent, it is very difficult to have more than 2 all-stars on any one team. And even if your team is fortunate enough to have them, it becomes impossible to keep them because of free agency.

They key to assembling a team that can win the championship is to have enough talent on your team to be able to compete successfully with your opponents.  I think if you have a top 10 player at every position you will be very close to be able to competing with the best teams in the NBA, and if one or two of them are all stars than you have a great chance of winning.

I didn't come to the conclusion that the Sixers have the players they need simply because they wear the uniform.  I came to it by looking at the team's stats and seeing the changes.

Dabods was very unhappy with the Korver trade, while I thought it was good for the Sixers, simply because  Cheeks would be forced to play the younger players.  Well, since the trade, (actually, I think it took a bit longer than right away) the Sixers have started to play a lot better statistically.  So much better that I am worried about them making a run at the playoffs when I want them in the lottery!

When I first posted about this on an earlier thread I recall the Sixers were giving up 2 points per game on average on their differential, a loosing team ranked 18th in the league.  Well, they are now only giving up 1.54 pts. a game Randy- in the time that they lost Korver and started playing the young players they have improved that much. They're still ranked 18, but improving rapidly.

I looked again at the stats last night, and it's worse than I thought from the perspective of wanting ping-pong balls!  In their last ten games, their differential is Positive, not Negative.  They are plus 4.6 pts. in their last 10 games - a winning team. In their last 5 games, it's even worse, they are a plus 11.6 pts. per game- ranked FIRST in the League!!!!!

That's why I think they have a good core of players- even if some of this is the result of a weak schedule.    Thadeus Young and Jason Smith have become integral players in the rotation since Korver left.  Louis Williams is also getting more minutes.  Only recently, did Cheeks put Reggie Evans on the bench and start Jason Smith.  This move towards playing the young players is continuing.  Rodney Carney who Dabods thought was a bad player, is doing a good job as a pressure defender and a finisher on the break.

I'm not sure how good these players are, and I doubt anyone else does either, they are all very young and inexperienced,  but they are athletic and fast. I still don't think they're good enough to beat a contending team, but I am curious to see how well they can play with the Mavericks when they come next week. 

I already said I thought an All-Star center would put them in the playoffs and I meant it.  If I could have TD with the other Sixers in place, we might be a year or two away from contending with Boston and Detroit.  As I said, they have no post game and no real half-court offense. That still might not keep them out of the playoffs in the EC this year!

I don't want to try and add pieces and give up a young player that later turns out to be a top 10 at his position.  Dalembert is a disapointment, but he is still averaging a double-double, so how wrong was I really about him? He's not adequate at Center with a weak PF, but if we had Garnett at the 4, I'd feel pretty good about the Sixers!

I think that Igoudala is a top 10 2 guard now.  I think Louis Williams will become a top 10 point.  I think Thadeus Young could become a top 10 SF - (in fact, he seems to have better instincts than any of the others!) I think Jason Smith is probably a back-up PF, but it depends on who else he shares the front line with but bigs can take a while to fill-out enough to bang in the NBA.  Carney is an NBA player- maybe just a role player, but it's too early to tell.

We also have 3 bigs on the bench that aren't playing as result of injuries or Cheeks keeping them there.  Herbert Hill, who just had micro surgury and will be out for at least 7 weeks, Shavlik Randolph who broke his ankle and is still recovering and Louis Amundsen.

So, the Sixers don't know what they have with their young players right now, but that's what this season is for, to figure out who they have and where they need new players. They have Miller and Giricek to trade along with Booth.  I believe Miller and Giricek's contracts expire next year, so they might wait until then to act.  A chance at a real center would make us move, but I don't think I want J. O'Neil and I don't see anyone out there who the Sixers could get right now that would give us a shot at competing.

[Randy]

Okay, Rick -- just a question -- how do you equate this sentence:

I'm not sure how good these players are, and I doubt anyone else does either, they are all very young and inexperienced,

with your previous quote that the Sixers have already reloaded.  I think that was my point before -- some of these players will be starters -- some will be role players.  Is Iggy a player you build a team around?  Is he someone who will initiate the offense or is he a gifted player, like TMac for instance, who will never lead the team to be anything but a "first and done"?  Which players are really worth keeping and what positions need to be upgraded.

I'm not sure that I think the Sixers are as "reloaded" as you think.

[rickortreat]

They have new players at every position who are now playing and contributing significant minutes.  They are all rookies or second year players, aside from Igoudala.

Andre is good enough to be a starting 2 on a Championship team, IMO.  The others are going through an evaluation process right now.   - All Players on all teams go through that evaluation constantly, as each coach tries to improve his team - in response to perceived weaknesses illuminated by loosing to other teams.

But before you go about making changes- it makes sense to know what you already have.  That is where the Sixers are now.  It's already clear that they need help up front, and that if they trade Andre Miller they will need another point guard to go with Lou Williams.

It is highly unlikely that any changes they make now will put them into contention this year.  Even if they did get TD or KG in a trade, they young players probably couldn't handle the pressure of playing and defeating good teams in the playoffs.  So there's no rush for the Sixers to say, this player will never fit on a championship team so we need someone to fill the x spot.

The Sixers are starting to build a team- I hope - that is, they have accumulated enough talent that they are legitimately close.  As I said, nothing they can do will turn them into a contender this year, so why worry about trading for this player or that?  Just let the evaluation continue, let the young players learn and develop and see where they are at the end of the season.

There's nothing worse than searching for that one player, and then realizing you sent him off in a trade two years ago, because you already had a player at that position.

Besides they're winning, which is the best argument for continuing to play them.  They clobbered the Clippers by 20 points last night. And Dalembert held Kamen to 4 pts.

They have more offensive talent on the team now then when they went to the finals. They have a ways to go to match the defensive intensity of that team, but they can all slash and get into the paint.  More than anything else these players need time and experience on the court.

[Derek Bodner]

[quote[When I first posted about this on an earlier thread I recall the Sixers were giving up 2 points per game on average on their differential, a loosing team ranked 18th in the league.  Well, they are now only giving up 1.54 pts. a game Randy- in the time that they lost Korver and started playing the young players they have improved that much. They're still ranked 18, but improving rapidly.[/quote]

First, Thad has been starting at POWER FORWARD, not SF.  His increased playing time is more a result of Cheeks benching Reggie Evans than the Korver trade.

Second, if Cheeks needed Korver to be moved to realize that Young could play, that's a problem with Cheeks, not a problem with Korver.

Third, the Sixers are 7-13 since the Korver trade, a .350 winning percentage.  If that gets you giddy, then your expectations are really low.  It bears mentioning that they were 14-17 before the trade (.451, a better winning percentage).  It also bears mentioning that while the Korver has been on the court for the Sixers, they've been outscored an average of 1.0 points per 100 possessions.  When he's been off the court, the Sixers have been outscored on average of 2.8 points per 100 possessions.  And that's with Korver being injured, and playing the worst stretch of games in his career.  Only you would define the Korver trade as helping the Sixers play.

Fourth, before this recent 3 game winning streak, the Sixers were 4-13 since their trade.  4 wins in 17 games.  If you're that fickle that a 3 game winning streak means the team has turned from god awful (4-13) to good, then you need some help. 

Fifth, I might point out that of the three teams the Sixers just beat, none of them have a winning record.  It includes the worst team in the league in Miami, who was also down their second and 3rd best players (Marion and Haslem).  It includes the 5th worst team in the league in the Clippers, who are down their best player (Brand).  And it includes the Wizards, who are down their best player (Arenas), and who's second best player (Butler) got injured and had to leave the game.  All 3 games were at home.  They recently lost to the NY Knicks.

Yippee.  I'm practically jumping for joy.

Only recently, did Cheeks put Reggie Evans on the bench and start Jason Smith

Um..Rick, you really should start watching the games.  Of the 6 games Evans has been on the bench, Young has started 5 of them at power forward.

the Sixers have started to play a lot better statistically.  So much better that I am worried about them making a run at the playoffs

7-13.

Rodney Carney who Dabods thought was a bad player, is doing a good job as a pressure defender and a finisher on the break.

If his positives, at 24 years old in April, are that he's a good pressure defender and can finish on the break, then yes, he stinks.  He's one of the dumbest offensive players I've ever seen.  Hence why he's shooting 37% on the year and has more turnovers than assists for his career.  And for a guy who's 6'6" and has more leaping ability than probably anyone in the league, his 1 rebounder per 8 minutes is laughably bad.

I think that Igoudala is a top 10 2 guard now.  I think Louis Williams will become a top 10 point.  I think Thadeus Young could become a top 10 SF

Ok.  First, Iguodala has played SF all year.  Literally, every game he's started at SF.  Second, Williams is so far away from a top 10 point guard that's a ridiculous prognostication.  Young's the only one I can see, and at 19 he's still got a long way to go.

And even if all 3 of them reach that status (which I highly doubt), 3 players are are in the top 3rd in the league are not enough in the NBA.

[Derek Bodner]

They have more offensive talent on the team now then when they went to the finals

Dude, Rick, you really have to stop.  The Sixers are 25th in the league in scoring, and last in the league in 3 pt shooting.  That sixers finals team was a mid-pack offensive team.  15th in the league in scoring, 12th in efficiency.

[rickortreat]

Dabods you need to wake up!

Go to NBA.com and look at the team stats.  Look at the point differential for the Season- the Sixers are now 17th up from 18th.  And now only loosing by 1.09 pts.  Then, sort the stat by the last 10 games and then the last 5.

All you see is significant, marked improvement.  In the last 10 games, they are the 8th best team in the league. In the last 5 they are the 10th best.

It is starting to impact their record and the attitude of the players towards the games.

You can blame Cheeks for keeping the young players on the bench, but he learned from Brown, who treated rookies like they were College Freshmen.  Korver was a backup player that Cheeks felt more comfortable with.  I'm more inclined to take risks when it's clear that what I have on the floor isn't working, but then again I'm not a head-coach in the NBA.

Jason Smith was the starting PF until he got injured.  Cheeks put Thad in instead and he has been there since- but the teams they have played lack inside height so Cheeks could keep Thad there without hurting the team.

I'm pretty comfortable with projecting Young and Williams as top 10 players at their position.  It is premature to project anything higher while they're still learning the game.  There's a big difference between having the physical skills and being a top NBA player.

Finally, when you make a trade that takes one of your starters, and all the players you have left are rookies or sophmores, you should expect your winning percentage to take a hit- at least until the new players get comfortable in their roles and the current players become comfortable with them.  Fortunately for me, I missed most of those games, as I was in Florida on vacation.

Since I came back, I have seen a different team then the one before I left.  Different players and a different style of play.  When they loose they loose by a bucket or two.  When they play a team they should beat, they run them out of the building- something that just didn't happen when Korver was here.  That isn't Kyle's fault either- he's fit in great with the Jazz who run a very good half-court offense, but he's not a high pressure defender who can run the floor like a gazelle.  By the end of the year, they will be a better team then they were at any point when they had Kyle, if not already.

If they continue to improve, they're going to make the playoffs and ruin our chances to pick up an impact PF/C in the draft.  The teams above the Sixers in the standings are all playing worse right now.  Based on the stats over the past 5 games they are playing better than Dallas.  They are currently in a virtual tie with 3 other teams in the East vying for 2 playoff spots.  Atlanta is the only team that is better right now.    Their records in the last 10 are all loosing records, while the Sixers are at the .500 mark.

The Clippers are a bad team, but if the Sixers are a bad team, they shouldn't be blowing them out by 20 pts. not when they just beat Toronto the night before.

The Sixers are 25th in scoring, but in terms of point differential they are ranked 17th.  In the last 10 games they are ranked 10th in scoring- Igoudala, Miller and Williams are all picking it up a bit.  Their point differential in the last 10 games puts them in 8th spot.  When Iverson went to the finals, the Sixers didn't have anyone else who could put up a lot of points.  George Lynch, Eric Snow, Aaron McKie.... all very good defensive role players, not scorers.   

This is no longer a stagnant team going nowhere.  They are a young team trying to figure out how to play and how to win.  5-5 in their last 10. Their next 10 are Dallas, Memphis, Minnesota, New York, Orlando, Golden State, Phoenix, LA Clippers, Seattle and Milwaukee.  I think they go 6-4, loosing to Dallas, Golden State, Orlando and Phoenix.   If they beat Dallas and or Golden State that would be a significant improvement. I wanted a lottery pick, and it's not looking good!

[Derek Bodner]

Jason Smith was the starting PF until he got injured.  Cheeks put Thad in instead and he has been there since- but the teams they have played lack inside height so Cheeks could keep Thad there without hurting the team.

Wrong.  Young started 1-26 against Charlotte.  Then Smith started one game, 1-30 against Milwaukee, because he matched up better with Yi's size.  Young was the starter before Smith got injured, and has started all 5 games since Smith started his one, and probably would have happened even without Smith getting injured (Smith scored 1 point in 26 minutes in his lone start).  Regardless, your statement that "since Smith made Jason Smith the starter" is factually incorrect since Young replaced Evans first.

The Sixers are 25th in scoring, but in terms of point differential they are ranked 17th

You contradict yourself.  You say the Sixers this year are a better offensive team, then say "yeah, they don't score many points, but their point differential is average".  Point differential isn't proof of offensive competency.

(BTW, The Sixers point differential in 2000-2001 was +4.4, which was top 3).

The rest of your post is just cool-aid, that I just don't agree with.  Sure, their point differential has "improved".  That's a result of scheduling, not improved play.  During the last two weeks, The Sixers are 5-2.  They've beaten:
Charlotte, who's 18-32
Milwaukee, who's 19-32 and was playing without Michael Redd and Desmond Mason
Washington, who's 24-25, and was without Gilbert Arenas and Caron Butler got hurt
Miami, who's 9-39 and was without Shawn Marion and Udonis Haslem
Clippers, who's 16-32 and without Elton Brand

During those 8 games they're 5-3 and +86(+10.75).  In the previous 12 games after the Korver trade they were 2-9 and a -116 (-10.55).  Now, do you think they've magically turned the corner, or do you think it's a product of an amazing schedule where they're playing the worst in the NBA, at home, without their best players?

I know which side I'm on.  I think you're drinking cool-aid.  beating up on the bucks at home without their two best players doesn't exactly inspire me to great confidence in me.  And I was at the game.  I guess you're different.

[rickortreat]

I'm sure it has something to do with the schedule that they've improved so much via the stats.  The question is how much is it the other team and how much of it is attributable to the Sixers.

The main difference now is that they are more aggressive on defense and offense, and they try to push the ball up the floor almost all the time.  Against the Clippers, they deliberately went into a half-court offense and were able to score fairly consistently, including outside shots.  I know the Clippers are a bad team now, without Brand, but they were unable to score against the Sixers in their offense, or manage to get any stops. 

For the past several games the Sixers have focused on running every chance they get.  Even when the other team tries to stop them, they just keep coming and getting shots and drawing fouls. I expect them to come down to earth against Dallas, but this is exactly the way Golden State played the Mavericks successfully last year.

Dabods, I measure teams by their point differential.  Some teams like to run a faster game which generates more shots and more baskets.  Others, like Detroit want to slow the game down to a crawl.  Both the Suns, who go at a fast pace and Detroit are top teams in the league in spite of the difference in their styles.  Whatever style a team has, if it allows them to score more points than the other team they'll win more games. That is offensive competency.   I'm sure the '00 team had a better point differential, they were a good team from the beginning of the season, so far the '08 team has a loosing record.  They have a long way to go.  But now I watch the games with hope, something I didn't have at the beginning of this season.

[Derek Bodner]

Dabods, I measure teams by their point differential.  Some teams like to run a faster game which generates more shots and more baskets.  Others, like Detroit want to slow the game down to a crawl.  Both the Suns, who go at a fast pace and Detroit are top teams in the league in spite of the difference in their styles.  Whatever style a team has, if it allows them to score more points than the other team they'll win more games. That is offensive competency.   I'm sure the '00 team had a better point differential, they were a good team from the beginning of the season, so far the '08 team has a loosing record.  They have a long way to go.  But now I watch the games with hope, something I didn't have at the beginning of this season.

Point differential is obviously the most important thing, but it isn't a measure of offensive effectivness.  It's a measure offense, defense, rebounding, turnovers.  Basically the whole shebang.  If you want to argue whether or not a team is a better OFFENSIVE team, you have to use offensive stats.

[rickortreat]

Dabods, I measure teams by their point differential.  Some teams like to run a faster game which generates more shots and more baskets.  Others, like Detroit want to slow the game down to a crawl.  Both the Suns, who go at a fast pace and Detroit are top teams in the league in spite of the difference in their styles.  Whatever style a team has, if it allows them to score more points than the other team they'll win more games. That is offensive competency.   I'm sure the '00 team had a better point differential, they were a good team from the beginning of the season, so far the '08 team has a loosing record.  They have a long way to go.  But now I watch the games with hope, something I didn't have at the beginning of this season.

Point differential is obviously the most important thing, but it isn't a measure of offensive effectivness.  It's a measure offense, defense, rebounding, turnovers.  Basically the whole shebang.  If you want to argue whether or not a team is a better OFFENSIVE team, you have to use offensive stats.

I see your point, but simply because a team is high-scoring doesn't mean it's a good offensive team!  They may run up and down and therefore get more possessions in the game, but they still may not convert a high percentage of their possessions into points.

Field Goal percentage indicates their success in their offense as they play the other teams.  A typically high scoring team might actually be a bad team that runs to win.  But when they play a team they can't run against, they become a lousy half-court team that can't execute.  Point differential says that regardless of how many points a team puts up, it is on average putting up more than their opponent.

Detroit is a great offensive team in the half-court.  They out-execute your team.  That is just as good a way to win as trying to outrun your opponent, maybe even better, since Detroit dominates other teams on both ends of the floor.  But no one would say they were a high-powered offense like the Suns.