Author Topic: Eddie Griffin dies in car wreck.  (Read 4120 times)

Offline rickortreat

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Re: Eddie Griffin dies in car wreck.
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2007, 04:07:16 PM »
Rick,

The Wolves not only helped get Eddie in touch with John Lucas and his substance abuse program, they also sent him (at Eddie's request) to rehab and the team trainer provided the anti-alcoholism drug Antabuse.  There is only so much you can do for an adult even when they want to change, which Griffin apparently did.   




I didn't know that JN.  This makes it even sadder.  It is hard to change and in his case it was clearly necessary.

Offline rickortreat

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Re: Eddie Griffin dies in car wreck.
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2007, 04:10:10 PM »
You tell me, who is at fault, the buyer for borrowing, or the lender for lowering his standards to allow that person to obtain a mortgage?


The buyer for borrowing.  We all have to be responsible for our own actions.  Just because a lender will gladly enable you to overleverage yourself doesn't make it a good idea.   

OK, I agree with you, but consider this:  The homeowner will loose the house, but the bank that sold him the loan will be bailed out by the government!  The little guy always gets screwed- and DON'T THINK for one second that it was an ACCIDENT that while the bubble in housing was being blown, the Congress made it much, much, tougher to declare bankruptsy!

Offline Lurker

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Re: Eddie Griffin dies in car wreck.
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2007, 04:43:09 PM »
You tell me, who is at fault, the buyer for borrowing, or the lender for lowering his standards to allow that person to obtain a mortgage?


The buyer for borrowing.  We all have to be responsible for our own actions.  Just because a lender will gladly enable you to overleverage yourself doesn't make it a good idea.   

OK, I agree with you, but consider this:  The homeowner will loose the house, but the bank that sold him the loan will be bailed out by the government!  The little guy always gets screwed- and DON'T THINK for one second that it was an ACCIDENT that while the bubble in housing was being blown, the Congress made it much, much, tougher to declare bankruptsy!

Congress made it tougher to declare bankruptcy so that the government (me & you as taxpayers) isn't bailing out individuals who beleived they could speculate in real estate with the equity in their home.

The subprime lending debacle is as much, if not more, about people who were trying to buy & flip real estate without using any equity than those truely hard-working people who were trying to gain a foothold in the American dream.
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Offline rickortreat

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Re: Eddie Griffin dies in car wreck.
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2007, 06:28:35 PM »
Congress made it tougher to declare bankruptcy so that the government (me & you as taxpayers) isn't bailing out individuals who beleived they could speculate in real estate with the equity in their home.

The subprime lending debacle is as much, if not more, about people who were trying to buy & flip real estate without using any equity than those truely hard-working people who were trying to gain a foothold in the American dream.



Not so, Lurker.  Subprime lending is all about enabling people who lacked adequate credit to buy a home.  The speculation in housing is a function of America's shift away from actually making things!  IF you can't make money working, you look for other opportunities like speculating in home appreciation or the stock market.  The middle class in America is being undermined and destroyed.  I don't blame anyone for trying to make a living! Most people involved in flipping properties have the means to qualify for a PRIME loan.

Banks conspired with each other to find a way to make subprime loans appear to be a sound investment.  Up until last month, every bank was in on it, and making a fortune creating collaterallized debt obligations and mortage backed securites. Everything was protected by hedges- options based on loan performance or interest rate fluctuations, also written by these banks.

Everything was fine until some of the firms decided they wanted to limit their exposure to subprime loans.  All of these loans and the derivatives they were based on were marked to a model in-house. They were never exposed to the free market to establish price.  When they went to sell these things, they found no market for them.  Billions of dollars invested in these things were now considered too risky by the free market!

Goldman Sachs went up to $230 a share plus- literally the king of the derrivative traders on all the business they were doing.  When the sh*t hit the fan, their stock dropped to $155 in only 2 months!

But Lurker, and this is the real point- GS will be around for years to come. They are a member bank of the Fed and will not be allowed to fail. Those people about to loose their homes will be ruined financially.  The enablers who enticed these people to put their heads in the noose, will be bailed out by the taxpayers, you and me.

When gold goes to $1600 an oz., it's about $660 now, understand that it's because the dollar went down.  Why is it going to go down? Because of all the money required to bail out Goldman and the other players!  And when gas is $5 a gallon, it will be because of this as well!

If you want to learn more about this, I suggest you take a look at jsmineset.com

The bubble in housing was created and fostered by the Fed.  The bust is inevitable as the Sun rising in the morning.  There must be an equilibrium between the number of homes available and the ability and willingness of people to buy them.  When exceptionally favorable interest rates foster the bubble- don't blame the sheeple! You shouldn't have to be an economist to know when it's safe to buy a home. You shouldn't have to be clairvoyant to understand what irresponsible credit creation can do.  What it has done is inflate home prices all around the country.  What it will do is ruin lots of people who didn't know better.  The banks knew better. They also knew they could get away with it, because of their power and influence.

Offline Derek Bodner

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Re: Eddie Griffin dies in car wreck.
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2007, 07:51:26 PM »
Only this board could turn a thread about the horrific death of a guy who may have committed suicide into a debate about the government and economics.

Offline Lurker

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Re: Eddie Griffin dies in car wreck.
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2007, 09:05:18 AM »
Only this board could turn a thread about the horrific death of a guy who may have committed suicide into a debate about the government and economics.

Or a Kobe thread. 

 ;D
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Eddie Griffin dies in car wreck.
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2007, 09:31:24 AM »
Rick,

The derivative market has been around for a while.  There has been no "conspiracy" by the banks to create one or push it in any way.  Investors chasing a larger return than money markets are the ones who pushed for more exotic investments to increase their return.  But many forgot 2 very basic premises: relative prices (no matter the commodity) don't go up forever and increased return is directly correlated to risk.  All the banks did was put together package of loans to meet the demand.

Subprime lending is a general term that takes in a lot more than just loans to people with shaky credit records.  It also includes what most lenders call A+ loans...loans to people with strong credit histories but that extended themselves to payment commitments beyond their income levels (see Spreewell and his failure to make pymts on his yacht).  These solid credit risks from the bank's perspective mostly took extended credit to speculate in the real estate market.  This speculation drove up prices and created the bubble. When they couldn't flip the properties they had to start turning them back over to the lenders because they couldn't maintain payments.  And it had very little to do with their primary residences.  If any industry deserves blame it is the construction industry that kept putting up more & more houses, with increassing price levels and luxuries, by financing them to the speculative buyers and then selling them to the banks who then packaged them for sale to investors.

And if I wan tto learn more I will continue to search out my own sites...ones that might actually report it from both sides.  Being in the financial industry I may just have as much insight where to look as a self  proclaimed trader.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
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Offline Skandery

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Re: Eddie Griffin dies in car wreck.
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2007, 10:10:18 AM »
Quote
You are making my point exactly.  Do you have any idea how many non-famous or non-rich KIDS face 10X worse situations?  Where the F are all the apologist for them?

I agree with WOW 100% on this (happens on occasion to my horrific surprise).  Societies infatuation with celebrity and wealth give people like Eddie many more chances than an average person would have during life and much more grief and mourning than they probably deserve when it all tragically ends.

Grow up and have the self-dignity to get therapeutic help and fight to exist.  Nope, Eddie futzed around for 25 years, then took the easy way out.  I don't feel huge remorse.

 
Quote
Only this board could turn a thread about the horrific death of a guy who may have committed suicide into a debate about the government and economics.

It's what keeps me coming back for more.  8)
"But guys like us, we don't pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in 'reality'. And reality has a well-known liberal bias."

Offline rickortreat

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Re: Eddie Griffin dies in car wreck.
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2007, 10:23:06 AM »
Lurker, the derivatives you're referring to are unregulated and as I imagine you know quite complex, which makes it very difficult to properly value them in the market.  You might think they are wonderful inventions, but I view them as weapons of financial destruction, since they depend on the ability of others to pay in the case of certain events, like defaulting on a mortgage or a sharp move in interest rates.  It's very profitable to provide mortgage insurance as long as you don't have to pay out on too many defaults.  The models which enabled the banks to continue to offer these products are at the root of the financial instability.

Of course it's a conspiracy by the banks- it enables them to gain more business than they could have without the derivatives.  These financial vehicles created a seriously distorted perception of risk, which has now resulted in the failure of a number of hedge funds and certain offerings by Bear Stearns, including one where they are preventing investors from redeeming their holdings!

The recent down-draft in the stock market is directly related to the uncertainty about the actual value of these instruments based on the factual observation of the number of mortgages in default or close to it.  That and the fact that when Bear Stearn tried to sell these CDO's and MBS's in the market they found NO BUYERS!

You know very well that the one thing investors in bonds don't like is uncertainty.  They all rushed into these things thinking they were safe and provided a better return than Govt. bonds.  A lot of financial institutions world-wide invested in these things, and now many of them are taking a serious hit.

Banks are enablers of risk taking behavior as is the Fed.  They never saw a problem they couldn't solve without papering it over with more liquidity- money out of nothing, (at least since Greenspan became Fed chairmen) which eventually finds it's way into the general economy, fostering inflation.

The people who control the money and access to it are responsible to a great extent for the stability of a society.  If you think that the Fed's decision to stop publishing M3 figures was just a coincidence, you're kidding yourself!

The very value of money-people's savings depends on the amount of money in circulation.  The Fed creates money out of nothing- it is backed only by the ability of the US government to pay off the debt from income derived from taxing the people.  Fiat currency has always failed throughout history- Gold or other commodities impose a fiscal discipline on Governments that prevents them from spending too much.  In the absence of such restraints, people in power can't resist the temptation to inflate.

The value of a currency is directly related to foreign trade.  China has taken advantage by pricing their currency so low that US producers cannot compete, just as Japan did years ago.  If there was a reckoning in Gold, they couldn't get away with that!  You know that currency value is related to the amount of goods and services flowing in both directions.  China sells a lot more to us than we do to them, and they now have a Trillion dollars in reserves, some of which they use to keep their currency low in the forex markets.  By buying Dollars they increase the demand for them.

You cannot have free-trade with countries that peg their currencies!  You cannot have free markets when countries cheat and try to gain an advantage by manipulating the value of their labor by these games.

You blame the homebuilders, but the banks lend them the money to build more homes than the market can handle.  The difference is that the homebuilder goes out of business when he can't pay his nut.  The bank just cries to the Fed, and continues on.

By all means, you should read from as many sources as possible in your efforts to understand the issue. 

The inflation coming down the road is already here.  Higher prices in the midst of an economic downturn, just like in the 80's.  But unlike the 80's where Volker and the Fed were determined to strengthen the dollar by reducing monetary aggregates, any attempt to do that today would destroy the actual economy.  The excess liquidity created cannot be drained from the system.  So instead it will destroy the value of the federal reserve notes in your wallet.  And even worse, the wallets of our parents, who no longer able to work rely on their savings and pensions to make ends meet.

Inflation is like a hidden tax,  destroying the stored value of your labor.  Valued in terms of Dollars the stock market has risen since the crash in 2000.  Valued in terms of something like gold or oil, reveals that the increase is due to inflation.  Yes, everyone has more money, but the value of each one is significantly less. This is the fault of those who expand the money supply to excess- the banks!