Anyone catch the Laker/Heat game last night?

[Joe Vancil]

Rather than go position by position, how about doing it player by player?

Okur (Utah's second best player) for Odom?
Boozer (0 games so far this year) for Parker?
Harpring for Mihm?

Personally, if I'm the Jazz, I don't make any of those deals - and if I'm the Lakers, I don't make the Harpring/Mihm deal, and only make the Okur/Odom deal and Parker/Boozer deal based on position rather than performance.

But offer the Jazz Odom for Boozer, and the Jazz are all over that deal.  And you know what?  If Boozer is healthy, I'm not sure that's not a decent deal for the Lakers, too.

 

[Guest_Randy]

Rather than go position by position, how about doing it player by player?

But offer the Jazz Odom for Boozer, and the Jazz are all over that deal. And you know what? If Boozer is healthy, I'm not sure that's not a decent deal for the Lakers, too.

Umm, the latter doesn't follow the player by player rules you established -- offer the Lakers Okur for Odom and the Lakers pull that trade in a heartbeat!

[Joe Vancil]

Of course they do - and that's based on position alone.  If you can get a productive center for a productive 'tweener, you do it.

Okur is about as close to untouchable as a player gets just due to the position he plays.  Add to the fact that the Lakers are desperate for ANY big, and he becomes a valuable commodity.

I'm just curious as to how valuable the Lakers would consider Boozer.  Obviously, Utah would want nothing to do with Mihm, Brown, or Cook.  But Utah has come to the conclusion that Boozer isn't a 2nd option, and if LA has come to the conclusion that Odom isn't a second option...it makes me wonder of both would do the deal.  Utah could use Odom's offense, and LA could use Boozer's rebounding.  Since both Odom and Kirilenko are 3/4 combo players, Utah could make it work, and LA has George and Walton waiting at the 3-spot.

Personally, I don't do it if I'm LA.  Odom *IS* a second option...maybe even a *FIRST* option in the right structure, while Boozer is at best a second option.



 

[westkoast]

Of course they do - and that's based on position alone.  If you can get a productive center for a productive 'tweener, you do it.

Okur is about as close to untouchable as a player gets just due to the position he plays.  Add to the fact that the Lakers are desperate for ANY big, and he becomes a valuable commodity.

I'm just curious as to how valuable the Lakers would consider Boozer.  Obviously, Utah would want nothing to do with Mihm, Brown, or Cook.  But Utah has come to the conclusion that Boozer isn't a 2nd option, and if LA has come to the conclusion that Odom isn't a second option...it makes me wonder of both would do the deal.  Utah could use Odom's offense, and LA could use Boozer's rebounding.  Since both Odom and Kirilenko are 3/4 combo players, Utah could make it work, and LA has George and Walton waiting at the 3-spot.

Personally, I don't do it if I'm LA.  Odom *IS* a second option...maybe even a *FIRST* option in the right structure, while Boozer is at best a second option.

Odom is a pretty good rebounder so I don't know if giving up Odom's passing for a guy who is close in the rebounding department would be an even trade off.  The one thing I would assume the Lakers would like from Boozer is some toughness on the inside and a guy who can pound the ball in using his muscle.  Currently the Lakers lack a brusier and big body that is going to physically wear down the other big men.  Kwame could be that guy but he does not have a good enough back to the basket game, he relies scoring on quick moves rather than backing players down for a hook.

Randy is thinking that is what Turiaf will be but I am not holding my breathe on him this season because his body has taken quite a beating this year.  Next year I bet he can be a solid contributor to give the Lakers some more toughness.

What about Harp for George?  I would do that trade in the minute because I like the menality Jerry Sloan as instilled in him and just like Boozer, hes a big bruiser.

[Joe Vancil]

As a Jazz fan, I wouldn't do it, but that's because I personally over-value Harpring.  Harpring's not a guy I'm all that objective about while he's playing under Sloan - he's such a clear fit for Sloan.

Harpring likes Utah because of Sloan's system.  I don't think he'd fit well in the Lakers' system.  I think it would be too much like his stay in Philadelphia.  In essence, I don't think that LA gets the Utah version of Harpring if they acquire Harpring.

 

[westkoast]

As a Jazz fan, I wouldn't do it, but that's because I personally over-value Harpring.  Harpring's not a guy I'm all that objective about while he's playing under Sloan - he's such a clear fit for Sloan.

Harpring likes Utah because of Sloan's system.  I don't think he'd fit well in the Lakers' system.  I think it would be too much like his stay in Philadelphia.  In essence, I don't think that LA gets the Utah version of Harpring if they acquire Harpring.

I don't doubt that one bit.  The coaching style of Jerry Sloan does fit perfect for Matt Harpring.  For some reason I don't think he would respond as well to incense and buddah figures in his locker.  *IF* the Lakers would get the current Matt Harpring IMO the deal would be a no brainer.  From top to bottom the Lakers are a skinny team.  There is no real big body out there that is going to dish out some pain and absorb it at the same time.

One of PJs strengths in coaching is  knowing how to use certain players.  I think Matt's style of basketball would be used better in LA than it was in Philly.

[Ted]

Hmm, Okur, Harpring, Giricek, Williams, Boozer -- yeah, these guys are JUNK huh?  I'd rather have Okur on my squad than ANY player the Lakers have other than Kobe!  Want to make a swap?  Some of these guys have had GREAT years (see Harpring and Boozer) with other squads and yet you deem them as junk.  You need to start taking a dose of your own medicine.

Let's see - how about a couple of trades -- straight up:
  Mihm for Okur
  Kwame for Boozer
  George for Harpring

Sound good?

Randy,

Boozer hasn't played a game this year. He bends over to tie his shoe in a shootaround and reaggravates his hamstring for the fourth time this year . . .
Translation: CARLOS BOOZER IS A FAKER.

Larry Miller hurt Charlie's feelings last season when he questioned the Booz' effort. I predict that Boozer will not touch the floor again in a Jazz uniform. I predict that Boozer will be traded to another market and will immediately receive a miraculous healing from above.

[Skandery]

Randy,

Where's the props for the rest of the Jazz team? Okur especially! This guy is having a CAREER year. And while AK57 is obviously a key factor for the Jazz I would submit that so is Okur. In last nights win, AK57 had a triple-double (his first, I believe) but here is Okur's statline: 29 points, 11 of 17 from the field (65%), 1 of 2 3 pt (50%), 6 of 6 from the line (100%), 6 reb, 6 ass, and 1 blk. I'd contend that while the Jazz couldn't have won that game without AK57 -- they also couldn't have won that game without Okur. In fact, while your stats show how the Jazz have done without AK57 -- they fail to show the importance of Okur to the Jazz team -- I'd contend that Okur is almost as important to the Jazz as AK57 -- but yet you give him no credit?

 :ot:

But I'd be happy to converse on this topic.  You quoted my post from a thread talking about mid-season MVPs.  A lot of the people I'd consider were mentioned already: Dirk Nowitzki, Elton Brand, etc.  So I decided to bring to light how I don't ever really see Kirilenko's name mentioned in MVP talks.  That entire post was to show how well they do without him (b/c he's oft-injured) compared to how they do when he's healthy.  Okur has had a fantastic year, but I wouldn't call it MVP-level year.  He's also not had the advantage/misfortune of being injured to see how good Utah would do with him missing time and Kirilenko on the floor.  Anyways, this whole point is irrelevant because my talking about Kirilenko "maybe" having an MVP calibre year doesn't mean I think Okur is a piece of gutter trash.

 

Hmm, Okur, Harpring, Giricek, Williams, Boozer -- yeah, these guys are JUNK huh? I'd rather have Okur on my squad than ANY player the Lakers have other than Kobe! Want to make a swap? Some of these guys have had GREAT years (see Harpring and Boozer) with other squads and yet you deem them as junk.   

Randy, can you please post where I deemed Okur, Harpring, Giricek, Williams, and Boozer junk?

Randy:  Umm, the latter doesn't follow the player by player rules you established -- offer the Lakers Okur for Odom and the Lakers pull that trade in a heartbeat!

Call me crazy but I'd pull that trade off in one hot minute.  Odom's passing ability and versatility in Sloan's system who also happens to be a better rebounder and a better defender than Okur.  Yeah that's a no-brainer.  What's Phil Jackson going to do with Okur, turn him into Luc Longley.  'Cuz I got news for you fellas, Okur ain't gonna be Shaq.

As far as Boozer for Odom, that's even better than the above trade for the Jazz.  Give me Odom over Boozer any day of the week.  

As far as the comparison of rosters, first and foremost you have to remove Carlos Boozer from the Utah Jazz for simple reason of, he has yet to play a single game for the Jazz this season.  My quote:

Kirilenko plays with a far less talented roster than Kobe does.

takes into account that Mr. Boozer has yet to suit up this year, EVER.  

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now then to compare rosters:

Keith Mcleod, Milt Palacio, Deron Williams at PG for Utah
Von Wafer, Sasha Vujacic, Smush Parker at PG for LA

this is a wash.

Gordan Giricek, Devin Brown at SG for Utah
Kobe Bryant at SG for LA

I'll go with LA

Matt Harpring, AK-47 at SF for Utah
Lamar Odom, Devean George, Luke Walton at SF for LA

I'll give a slight edge to Utah, contigent upon Kirilenko being healthy

Mehmet Okur, Kris Humphries at PF for Utah
Kwame Brown, Brian Cook at PF for LA

I'll go with Utah

Jarron Collins, Greg Ostertag at C for Utah
Chris Mihm, Andrew Bynum at C for LA

I'll go with LA

A wash, two for LA, one for Utah, and a half for Utah.  And I consider the difference between Kobe Bryant and Gordan Giricek to be greater than the difference between Mehmet Okur and Kwame Brown.  So in light of my recent analysis, I'll apologize for my hyperbole and re-phrase:

Kirilenko plays with a less talented roster than Kobe does.    

   







 

[Laker Fan]

Fire? I thought we were having fun going back and forth. Guess I am the only one

Yeah, you guys did get off easy which tells me only one thing.  You guys need to post more.  You know Laker Fan, I enjoy your rebuttals, in fact there's a little part of me that just searches for things like this to rile you out of the shadows.  One question, why is your respect for Phil gained grudgingly, (another fantastic vocab word, BTW) I thought you were a Phil Jackson fan?

No, you're not the only one, this is a great thread!

Actually, I have very mixed emotions about Phil Jackson, we had this debate a couple months ago here and I stated that my position is that Phil Jackson is an absolute genius at picking his spots, i.e., surrounding himself with a superior coaching staff to go along with superior talent on the floor, that makes him a great coach in only that respect, he is not a great X’s and O’s coach and in fact IMO only very average in that category. I have always felt he was for that reason, VERY overrated, and VERY full of himself, mi’ tia Lupe could have coached the Bulls to a title with the talent, team chemistry and coaching staff Phil had, I think his big contribution there was to develop the chemistry on that team and manage personalities although Michael Jordan was by far the bigger task-master than him, and you would either toe the line or take a hike. I think he was maddeningly disconnected and in many ways responsible for the soap opera that was the Lakers during the Kobe/Shaq years and consequently my opinion of him actually deteriorated as a result of him constantly shooting off his mouth like he was trying to work some of that cockamamie “zenmiester” garbage to some effect and all it did was blow up in everyone’s face.

I was extremely curious this season what would transpire when he took the helm in LA again. I mean, this is a team that has nowhere near the talent to be a serious threat to any decent team (and I completely disagree with you regarding the Jazz, they have some pretty decent talent onboard, and Kirilenko is easily top 10, maybe top 5 when he is healthy), and here we are, nearly midway through the season and LA is 10th defensively and beating team that should be waltzing all over them. And it is happening with some coaching staff changes and not much serious talent and a WHOLE LOT of youth and inexperience, hence the grudging props. I fully expected a train wreck this season and for Phil Jackson to be exposed as a pretender, it hasn’t happened and the credit has to go to Phil, he and Kobe are ALMOST on the same page and the team is gelling rather well.

So to answer your question, until this season I would have to say that no, I have never been a big Phil Jackson fan (Riles will always be my favorite coach), I have always respected him for I think recognizing his limitations and surrounding himself with the players and staff that would offset those limitations, IMO that made him a fantastic floor general in an administrative sort of way, not a great coach. This year he is well on his way to proving me wrong. Jerry Sloan did that and I’m not big on being proven wrong.

[Ted]

As far as Boozer for Odom, that's even better than the above trade for the Jazz.  Give me Odom over Boozer any day of the week.

YES! Oh please Kupcake, please make the offer. We will accept! Boozer is soft! Not muscle! Soft! And he is a mental and ethical liability.

I make it official if front of all of you. The Jazz were wrong to sign Boozer. We are paying for it.