Steve Nash and the Suns

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What do you guys make of this?

http://www.82games.com/0506/0506PHO.HTM

Player On Court +/-   Off Court +/-   Team Net +/-
 Barbosa     +25.0         -15.6      +40.6
 Diaw          +13.7         -10.1      +23.9
 Grant         +18.8          -3.5       +22.2
 Jackson      +11.9          -2.7       +14.6
 House         +10.3          -0.7       +11.0
 Thomas         -4.2         +7.3       -11.5
 Burke          -12.2         +1.8       -14.0
 Jones           -4.5          +12.1      -16.6
 Marion          -1.6         +16.4      -18.0
 Bell             -9.3          +24.8       -34.1
 Nash            -9.2          +27.8      -37.0

I know it is only 5 games, but this has been similar for the entire season.  I have to say that in the loss to Detroit, Nash really hurt the Suns.  He made a number of really poor decisions going down the stretch that resulted in no points for the Suns and easy points for the Pistons.


Also while we are on the Pistons.  Had a discussion recently about the fantasy worth of Richard Hamilton.  I look at the Pistons, and I think all of the starting 5 is a better basketball player than they are a fantasy player.  The only one that is even close is Billups, but even with him, I believe he is a better real life player than a fantasy player.
Is there any other team like the Pistons?  In fact is there any other team that has even 2 or 3 significant contributors who are better real life than fantasy?

[westkoast]

He did the same thing the other night at the very begging of the season (I have no idea why I cant remember the team they played).  He tried to do too much and tried to become an offensive weapon by shooting more.

I have cut him some slack because he is two target short from last years squad.  Being able to hit Amare and Joe Johnson with passes puts him back in the element he thrives in, which is ball distribution.  4-5 assists each game were coming off pick and rolls with Amare and sharp passes to him in the paint to dunk it.

[Skandery]

Also while we are on the Pistons. Had a discussion recently about the fantasy worth of Richard Hamilton.

Which you NEVER commented on??  :angry:

Actually for that matter neither did Bods, SpursX3, Lurker, Ted, LTTK.  I think Caleb and Randy were the only ones interested enough to post.  Maybe their posts pretty much spoke for everyone else?

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About this particular stat, I think it is very skewed against players who get lots of minutes: Marion, Bell, Nash.  While people who don't get that many minutes, Diaw and Barbosa will look better than they actually are.  You have to also remember that the starters are going to be playing the other teams best players.  Diaw, Barbosa, and Grant play against the reserves (we'll see what Diaw does with starters now).  With that said there is some validity to these numbers.  

Barbosa has been playing ON FIRE.  Right now the two most efficient players in the entire league have been Leandrinho and Shane Battier.  The kind of production reaped by the team for such little court time and shot attempts per game is Astonishing.  I think Barbosa will cool off and bring that gaudy number down.  

Diaw is a marvel and with Phoenix he is now playing an SF-PF combo player, where he is so much more natural.  This has been more beneficial to him than what Atlanta tried to do.  Resurrect Magic Johnson by turning 6'9 Diaw into a pure point guard.  Lo and behold, it didn't happen, what a shocker!  For a wing player, he is an awesome ball handler, passer, and can now defend people with comparable speed (his BPG are up).  For a point guard he was a bad ball handler, average passer, and was too slow for quicker guards.  I think D'Antoni has noticed the value Diaw brings to the court which is why he has been moved to the starting lineup instead of James Jones.  

Nash's problem is that he's a horrible defender.  Truly awful, worst than a starting point guard averaged more than 35 mpg should be.  He isn't even as good as slightly below average and its going to continue to hurt the Suns.  So the positive number when he is gone is probably going to stay put.  The negative number of Nash when he is in I think should be attributed to Kurt Thomas not quite figuring out how to play within the Phoenix system, yet.  Jones and Bell have hit the ground running but Thomas has really languished offensively and Marion hasn't been as offensively efficient has he should be.  Those two things will bring the negative number up and the overall number for Nash won't look so bad but still look worst than one would expect.      

   

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About this particular stat, I think it is very skewed against players who get lots of minutes: Marion, Bell, Nash.  While people who don't get that many minutes, Diaw and Barbosa will look better than they actually are.  You have to also remember that the starters are going to be playing the other teams best players.  Diaw, Barbosa, and Grant play against the reserves (we'll see what Diaw does with starters now).  With that said there is some validity to these numbers.  

 

Obviously in a small sample you can have strange results.  At the same time, I don't think this system penalizes people who play big minutes.  Here are a few names and their +/-

All of these are positive
Garnett  16.7
Kobe  45.0
Duncan 7.4
Brad Miller 23.5
Mike Bibby 23.2
Arenas  25.3
AK47  21.6
Iggy  14.0
Shaq  15.6
Wade  14.6

All of these guys play big minutes, and they all have +/- 50 to 60 points higher than Nash.

[Joe Vancil]

First of all, I believe it's easily possible to be a better fantasy player than an actual player, or a better real player than a fantasy player.  Examples of the former include Stephon Marbury and Paul Pierce.  Examples of the latter include Reggie Miller, Undonis Haslem, Trenton Hassell, and Gordan Giricek.  They're people who might help you in a fantasy category or two, but play a critical role in their team's success or failure.

As for Nash, he's making some absolutely AWFUL decisions on the court right now.  I think part of it is that his offensive players out there aren't quite what the ones last year were.  I think part of it is his shot selection, which has been somewhere between bad and infuratingly stupid in every Phoenix game I've seen this year.  That he's hurting his team more than helping it doesn't sound like a stretch to me.

However, I think this is not at all dissimilar to the way he played when he arrived in Dallas, and immediately tried to take on too much responsibility.  He worked it out before; one would presume that he'd work it out again, and much faster this time around.

Skander is right that Nash's defense is beyond awful.  That said, it's no worse than it was last year, or the year before that, or the year before that.  It's Nash's *OFFENSE* that's off this year, and that's what's really hurting him.

 

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First of all, I believe it's easily possible to be a better fantasy player than an actual player, or a better real player than a fantasy player.  Examples of the former include Stephon Marbury and Paul Pierce.  Examples of the latter include Reggie Miller, Undonis Haslem, Trenton Hassell, and Gordan Giricek.  They're people who might help you in a fantasy category or two, but play a critical role in their team's success or failure.

As for Nash, he's making some absolutely AWFUL decisions on the court right now.  I think part of it is that his offensive players out there aren't quite what the ones last year were.  I think part of it is his shot selection, which has been somewhere between bad and infuratingly stupid in every Phoenix game I've seen this year.  That he's hurting his team more than helping it doesn't sound like a stretch to me.

However, I think this is not at all dissimilar to the way he played when he arrived in Dallas, and immediately tried to take on too much responsibility.  He worked it out before; one would presume that he'd work it out again, and much faster this time around.

Skander is right that Nash's defense is beyond awful.  That said, it's no worse than it was last year, or the year before that, or the year before that.  It's Nash's *OFFENSE* that's off this year, and that's what's really hurting him.

Joe,
I agree with you that some players are better in real life and than fantasy.  I just thought it was so unique that the entire Detroit starting 5 would fall into that category.