Dress code comments

[Guest]

First and foremost let me just ask who this is directed at here on the board?   Apparently Randy seems to think its directed at a certain someone here also.  Maybe you need to lighten up a bit?  I did not call you a single name did I?  I spoke on the part of the rule that I thought was unneccesary and gave many reasons why.   This has nothing to do with keeping it real nor does it have as much to do with hip hop as it does the NBA using their marketing skills to trick the average jackass fan into thinking they are tightning the screws and making the image better.  You seem to be the expert in NBA marketing so you should see this.  These press releases, the coverage, statements from David Stern..."we are cleaning up the game" Im saying 'Riiiight sure you are'

Now where to start? :lol:

It is apparent that most of you don't see what it is that makes a player a star. You seem to think it is what they do on the court. But that is not in fact the case!

Talent and superior skill are necessary, since without that, there's no basis for stardom. But beyond an above-average ability, what separates one player from another is marketing!

The NBA influences broadcasters to focus on one player and make note of his exceptional skill. Even though there are others on the court with simillar unique qualities, this one gets more attention. Not only is his name called more, but advertizers latch on, and put his visage in the public eye. The NBA cultivates this image, and attempts to turn the player into a role model, someone that everyone wants to emulate...."like mike, I want to be like....."

Apparently you fail to realize that alot of American sports fans, especially basketball fans, like to be the first on a new player in high school and college.  Alot of these guys are already talked about and watched closely before the NBA marketing machine even gets to "make them".  Was AI made by the NBA or was he a solid player in the NCAA?  Who poses skills like him to score that isnt a star?  Was he not watched closely going into the NBA because he was a great player in college?  How about Tim Duncan?    Magic and Bird?  Kareem? Even Michael Jordan...can you tell me that it wasnt apparent before these guys go into the NBA that they were great basketball players?  Alot of these stars are already stars before they hit the league and its apparent to alot of sports fans that these guys are something special.  Cut out the so-many-players-are-created-equal crap.  They really are not and its very apparent.

We're looking for stable players with a professional demeanor and attention to detail, like working hard, being on time, communicating in a considerate manner, and dressing to impress.

After all, we're grooming you to make hundreds of millions in product endorsements. The last thing we need is to invest a fortune in your image to have ourselves being embarrassed by your conduct off the court. We don't want another Kobe!

That's not the image we want associated with our product or our company. NOW DO YOU GET IT, DIPSHIT?!?!? 

Groom?  Wow.  I dont think I would put it like that but you speak how you feel.

 The NBA wants the top talent and alot of the talent is coming from the innercity.  They know someone of these players come from an environment that is 180 from the new life they will lead once they get into the NBA.  Again, let me get back to the bs that is this new clothing rule....why mandate a clothing rule then go around and toot your own horn about it?  Why not mandate classes to help them prepare for managing money?  Why not have them take classes on investments and the business side?  Why not have people explain to these players people will try to take advantage of you in situations.   If you dont point a 21 year old NBA player making 5 million a year in a direction for the future they go and party.  This is where alot of these problems come from, partying and having money to spend on your "boys" and girls.  You much rather be lied to by thinking putting Kobe in a suit before flying to NY means people will forget he was put on trial for rape.  If only Portland would have known this whole time all they needed to do was make their players wear suits....heck who knows how many titles they could have won.  Apparently a suit changes your attitude or the dark side of life you seem to enjoy.

This is not the image we want associated with their product? LOL.    Does Reebok not know AI is a little edgy?  Damn right they do and they are appealing to white kids who want to rebel, the hip hop community that is very much about sneakers,  and people who play basketball.  The NBA doesn't want to associate themselves with hip hop and 'partying' yet they take a song called 'Lets get retarded' (which in "keeping it real terms"   :rolleyes:  is talking about getting f'd up) and change the words around and use it as a national slogan.

We expect you to cultivate an image that promotes worthy qualities that others will emulate. Not everyone can be a great basketball player, but they can dress like you, and wear your shoes! And we want you to wear the products that we want to sell, to the people who have the MONEY TO BUY THEM!

Um Rick?  Dont you think if it was about that then they would continue to let players wear clothes most of America can afford as oppose to 5 thousand dollar designer clothes and suits?  White America has a hand in the major hip hop businesses so its not about them pitching product they own.  Jay-Z is a known ex-crack dealer, gangsta rapper, who often promotes sex in his music but he has the highest selling reebok shoe of all time.  50 cent?  Also has a deal with reebok and his 'g-unit sneaker' is 2nd only to Mr. Jay-z.  Again what world are you living in?  You think these corporations want a perfect image or do they actually enjoy having someone who the media wont shut up about?  Bad press is still press and advertising.

Poor people in the Ghetto don't have the money to spend the little rich white boys do. We can make a lot more money, and so can you, if we sell to them. SO wear the fuckin suit you DOPE! Look good in it and wear it with pride, so we can use you as a role model who wears nice clothes. Then we can sell all the people who want to be like you clothes that make them look good.

I think you need to take a trip to South Philly, NY, LA, etc and see what the "poor people" in the ghetto are wearing.  People in the innercity are sold these products like everyone else.  Most of the trends the rich white boys are following are trends from the inner city.  Kids and young adults rather dress like Stephen Jackson in Roc-a-wear shirts and Sean John pants than in Armani, Guess, or any of those.

We're tired of just selling sneakers and softdrinks. There's only so much of a market for hip-hop, and most of the white boys parents aren't down with that. There are so many everyday products we could sell, if only you presented a respectable enough image!

Is that keepin' it real enough for you MORON? 

Only so much of a market for hip hop?  Hip hop is a MEGA business bringing in a huge amount of revenue on products ranging from sneakers to clothes to drinks (alcoholic, energy, and regular) to  music to DVDs to food to even cars now.  You are giving American parents alot of credit for them monitoring their children like that.  According to Forbes and other media outlets it seems that anything "hip hop" (I use that very very loosely) is going platnium.
 
You seem to be falling for the NBAs lattest marketing ploy.  Which is shake up the league with a rule and include parts of the rule to be so over the top that it causes people to believe you are making major changes.  Again ill use AI and Kobe as it pertains perfectly to both of us and ask you this....Does putting a suit on both these guys keep them from getting themselves into the trouble they have over the last few years?  Answer that one for me.

[rickortreat]

I hope I didn't offend anyone with my remarks, I'm simply trying to shake you up and have you look at this in a different way if you haven't already.

This is all about image, and style over substance.

A thug is still a thug, why do you think the Itallian mob was famous for wearing those expensive suits?

First and formost the NBA is about money.  It is a business, and Stern is concerned as he should be about keeping it successful as possible.

I agree that these young men should be councelled and protected, from the difficulties which inevitably come from easy money, but it would also be good if the players themselves would seek help.  They have the money and the need, if they're not so filled with their own hype they'd realize that with money comes responsibilty and obligations.

Class and understatement are not common qualities among NBA players.  They're not common anywhere.  Many people who are good at making money are not good at keeping it.  It is hard to find good, honest help.

In truth, most of us have a very hard time learning enough about finance to take care of ourselves.  There is a lot of advice out there, but most of it is self-serving and there are more crooks than decent people in that business.

I think this is more for the players association to deal with than the NBA. The NBA will help you make the money,  but keeping it is up to you.  The owners themselves are in this business to make money, and they have a tough time keeping it too!

Also, it's true that many of these players are stars before they get to the NBA.  And the ones that come in with the hype have a real head-start on the others.  But the NBA is never short on stars.  There is at least one on every team making local endorsement deals.  The point is the NBA makes stars, as it knows that's what keeps the fans comming.

IMO, Stern is very worried about the thug image and the self-absorbed attitude of these petulant individuals.  There was also a clause in the contract about doing more public service.  The fight in Detroit last year, and the Spreewell fiasco and the Kobe incident were all very embarrassing for the league, and Stern's response while excessive is the right move at the right time.  He at least is keeping his eye on what matters, and like him or not, he is the one that tries to keep everyone from the owners on down in line so the game stays successful.


 







 

[Guest_Randy]

You seem to be the expert in NBA marketing so you should see this.

Do you not think the NBA has some serious marketing issues?  I certainly do.

Here are the issues that I think NBA has to address:

  1)  The NBA "experience" is higher than ever -- from ticket sales to concessions to parking.  The NBA NEEDS to sell it's product and they aren't doing as well as they have in the past.
 
  2)  There are a LOT of people who are tired of NBA Millionaires acting like they have a right to do whatever they want:  from almost the entire Blazer roster a few years ago to Kobe Bryant to Spree's comments to AI's attitude (at least that in the past -- the "I don't need to practice"), etc.  I know people who USED to be season ticket holders who gave them up because of all the crap.  I used to know a guy who had season tickets in Seattle to the Blazers (and drove all the way down there for most of their games).  I'll speak as a Laker fan -- it's VERY tiresome to watch a game and see Kobe, Shaq and PJ ALL act incredibly selfishly on the floor -- why would I want to throw out a couple of hundred bucks to watch that in person?  There are way too many players involved in misdeamors and felonies in sports today -- why do we want to pay a couple of hundred bucks to see players given special rights AND make millions of dollars in the process.  It leaves a bad taste in the mouths of way too many fans.

  3)  Things went to a whole new level when the Malice in the Palace.  Stern is trying to do something although I think it goes ridiculously far.

  4)  Back in Kiki's day, players weren't filmed driving onto the parking lot going to the game -- things have changed a LOT since those days (and it's not like Kiki would have been the guy to have been filmed anyway).  The media is much more of a hound today that it was back then.  

I think there are some significant marketing problems.  I think the whole dressing up for flights, etc. is a little ridiculous.  Will fans look at these guys and take them more seriously if they wear a tie?  I doubt it -- the changes that I would like to see are much more substantial and I don't think Stern can change character in players.

How long will people pay this kind of money to support players who act like they either loathe or ignore the people paying their salary?  I will always love the game of basketball but frankly there are wayyyy to many players who have little to no respect for the fans that pay their salary.

[westkoast]

I hope I didn't offend anyone with my remarks, I'm simply trying to shake you up and have you look at this in a different way if you haven't already.

This is all about image, and style over substance.

A thug is still a thug, why do you think the Itallian mob was famous for wearing those expensive suits?

First and formost the NBA is about money.  It is a business, and Stern is concerned as he should be about keeping it successful as possible.

I agree that these young men should be councelled and protected, from the difficulties which inevitably come from easy money, but it would also be good if the players themselves would seek help.  They have the money and the need, if they're not so filled with their own hype they'd realize that with money comes responsibilty and obligations.

Class and understatement are not common qualities among NBA players.  They're not common anywhere.  Many people who are good at making money are not good at keeping it.  It is hard to find good, honest help.

In truth, most of us have a very hard time learning enough about finance to take care of ourselves.  There is a lot of advice out there, but most of it is self-serving and there are more crooks than decent people in that business.

I think this is more for the players association to deal with than the NBA. The NBA will help you make the money,  but keeping it is up to you.  The owners themselves are in this business to make money, and they have a tough time keeping it too!

Also, it's true that many of these players are stars before they get to the NBA.  And the ones that come in with the hype have a real head-start on the others.  But the NBA is never short on stars.  There is at least one on every team making local endorsement deals.  The point is the NBA makes stars, as it knows that's what keeps the fans comming.

IMO, Stern is very worried about the thug image and the self-absorbed attitude of these petulant individuals.  There was also a clause in the contract about doing more public service.  The fight in Detroit last year, and the Spreewell fiasco and the Kobe incident were all very embarrassing for the league, and Stern's response while excessive is the right move at the right time.  He at least is keeping his eye on what matters, and like him or not, he is the one that tries to keep everyone from the owners on down in line so the game stays successful.

Rick the problem is that its hard for these young men to seek help themselves for various reasons.  Some are innercity youth who don't get the best education in this country yet at the same time get the golden pass because they are a good athlete.   Some get caught up in ego and the attention given by being a young rich sports player (star or not).   If David Stern was so worried about the image of the NBA then why isn't he trying to attack the roots instead of going after the leaves on the plant?  That dress is nothing more than the end of the problem.  The real problem is decisions they make that put them in situations that the media will concentrate on since that is what the NBA cares about.  Notice I didnt mention them putting them in situations that would harm them as individuals in society.   David Stern and Co. has fans riled up that by being more strict with the dress code he is somehow making strides in cleaning up the game.  Does anyone on this board feel now that they have to wear suits that the decisions some of thse young men (and old lol) are going to be better?   I've heard Ron Artest's name brought up quite a bit when people are talking about this issue.   Are the hip hop clothes and chain making him act that way?  Or does Ron Artest come from a notorious housing project in NY where he was taught to attack anyone who attacked him?  They know where he was from why wasn't someone assigned as a mentor?  Why wasn't he required to take classes teaching him how people will provoke you and you have to be the bigger person?  They knew he had an attitude problem and they knew the enviroment he came from teaches you not to back down from anyone because it shows weakness.  

You know what would be nice?  If the NBA mandated some classes and mentor programs and then said "yes we are trying to help these players realize how important image is in business and the NBA"   Now if they bitch over being coached by mentors and others who have been around the NBA you wont hear a peep from me.  Im not over here saying "Poor NBA players have to wear suits" I would like to wear some of those suits!  I just cant take the bs behind them "announcing" this rule.  I feel they purposely went over the top with the rule to shake the sports media and the players up for their own gain.  The dress code is barely a step in the right direction yet they are getting a pat on the back?  The marketing team isn't tricking me I'd like to see results before I give them the kudos they are looking to get from the fans.  Heck they can use their marketing team to trick these players into wanting to take the classes.  Pitch these guys saying that its helping them become better business men and to make sure they maximize their money.   Wouldnt being lying would it?   Being a business man is important to these young men.  The same guys wearing chains and that hip hop clothing that influence some of these guys are businessmen they look up to.  See Jay-z.

The NBA is all about money and is not much different than the corporations some of us work for.   When my company feels that they would like someone to be a better worker they send them to classes to learn.   Whether its for how to deal with personalities or its training on balancing a budget as a project manager they make sure they do their part.  The NBA should be doing the same thing except by carefully selecting classes they will improve the decision making skills of the average young NBA player.  That will improve the image not by tucking your bling under your 5,000 Armani suit.  This new rule is like putting a bandaid on a chopped off limb.  A temporary, pointless patch for a major problem.

[Corporate Gangster?]

[rickortreat]

Westcoast, your 100% right, but as I said there are very few savvy financial people out there to begin with.

The owners themselves have hard times finding good people, and you want them to address a player issue.

IMO, the NBA thinks that's the players responsiblity.  That may not be smart, but that's the way it is.  The players should be seeking out people to help them with their money.

Hmmn, maybe I'll make up a couple of business cards and see if the players will hire me to help them.  Teach them how to set up a portfolio, put money aside, coach them on being respectable, etc.  I'm very honest and straightforward and would do a good job.  (really).

I wonder how many of them will take me up on my offer, or even sit down with me to see if they think I might be able to help them.  Somehow, I think many of them are too stupid to help themselves.  I know that the Sixers wanted to help AI, but he wouldn't meet half-way with them in the beggining.  Their ego extends istelf so far, it's tough for them to recognize their own limitations or see that they need help.

Artest would think that asking for help that way would be a sign of weakness, and he'd be right.  But it's a risk he'd have to take to learn to trust people and let them help him.

For that matter, I'd rather help people like you on this board.  These guys are going to make millions, even with some major screw-ups they'll be ok.  The average man on the street is in a much more difficult situation trying to make ends meet in this environment.  Who here, thinks they're set-up for retirement and will be able to maintain their standard of living when they're out of work?

 

[Derek Bodner]

Jay-Z is a known ex-crack dealer, gangsta rapper, who often promotes sex in his music

I'll probably get blasted for this, but I think Jay Z is one of the most overrated rappers ever.  Every song is self-centered.  There's no substance, IMO.  I don't find his lyrical skills or content to be worth anything.

tupac was a good lyricist.  he had a good delivery.  But he was great because of the content his songs had.  They had meaning.  They had a purpose.  He dealt with societal problems.  Even eminem, when you get past the shock value of how he says things, he's typically talking about societal shortcomings (or his troubled family, but that's another story).  Jay Z is all about glorification.  I dunno, I just don't find that entertaining.  If I wanted to listen to someone constantly talking about and promoting themself, I'd actually listen to my significant other

[Joe Vancil]

If I wanted to listen to someone constantly talking about and promoting themself, I'd actually listen to my significant other

You should be thankful she's constantly talking.  If she were one to  listen, she might have heard what you just said, and then you'd REALLY be in trouble!

 

[guest-koast]

Jay-Z is a known ex-crack dealer, gangsta rapper, who often promotes sex in his music

I'll probably get blasted for this, but I think Jay Z is one of the most overrated rappers ever.  Every song is self-centered.  There's no substance, IMO.  I don't find his lyrical skills or content to be worth anything.

tupac was a good lyricist.  he had a good delivery.  But he was great because of the content his songs had.  They had meaning.  They had a purpose.  He dealt with societal problems.  Even eminem, when you get past the shock value of how he says things, he's typically talking about societal shortcomings (or his troubled family, but that's another story).  Jay Z is all about glorification.  I dunno, I just don't find that entertaining.  If I wanted to listen to someone constantly talking about and promoting themself, I'd actually listen to my significant other

You wont get blasted from me.  While I like Jay's delivery and his personality (although I agree 100% about it being shameless self promotion) his content leaves quite a bit to be desired.  He is a very good lyricist when he wants to be  but the lyrics he chooses to use more often than not are ones that will sell records and not ones that are very thought provoking.  He himself says he has to "dumb down his lyrics" to move CDs.  

Some of my favorite MCs in hip hop are guys like Chuck D, Tupac, KRS-one, Rakim, Nas, Mos Def and Ice Cube before he learned how to go clubbin.  These guys have such great content.  They are actually saying things that need to be said.  I much rather hear Chuck D talking about fighting against police who abuse powers given to them then I would want to hear Jay-z talk about how he bought a 350,000 Bentley.

[westkoast]

"IMO, the NBA thinks that's the players responsiblity. That may not be smart, but that's the way it is. The players should be seeking out people to help them with their money"

If the NBA wants to do a better job of cleaning and protecting their image then maybe its time for the NBA to help the players with that responsiblity.  Asign people who are consultants that wont touch the players money but rather provide advice for them.

"I wonder how many of them will take me up on my offer, or even sit down with me to see if they think I might be able to help them. Somehow, I think many of them are too stupid to help themselves. I know that the Sixers wanted to help AI, but he wouldn't meet half-way with them in the beggining. Their ego extends istelf so far, it's tough for them to recognize their own limitations or see that they need help"

I would bet not very many.  Which is why I suggested the league mandate these like they are mandating the clothing rule.  Like I was saying some of these guys are not from the best schools and on top of that they get the golden pass for being a good athlete so even less work is put into school.  That or they let their egos get in the way and think they know better than others who actually went to school or know alot about finances.  That is where the requirement would be needed.  Then let these guys know that it will maximize the money they are making and believe me you will see alot more of these guys more gun-ho to attend the sessions.

"For that matter, I'd rather help people like you on this board. These guys are going to make millions, even with some major screw-ups they'll be ok. The average man on the street is in a much more difficult situation trying to make ends meet in this environment. Who here, thinks they're set-up for retirement and will be able to maintain their standard of living when they're out of work?"

I dont think its so much about them falling flat on their face because they ran out of money ala Mike Tyson as much as it is keeping the money from going to booze, parties, strippers, drugs, and other forbidden fruits here in America that young males get caught up in.  Not only is money being tossed around but alot of these lthings can put young guys in some sticky situations where people can take advantage of them.  Or they try to take advantage of someone else for whatever reason whether that be because of drugs, booze, or ego.

Another way to clean up the game would be for society to stop putting these guys so high up on the pedestal that they feel they can do whatever they want......but thats a whole new thread :lol: