Foreign 1st Rd picks

[Guest]

Figures you'd leave out Steve Nash.  And I object to excluding Steve Francis, who has played only a miniscule amount of minutes at the 2, especially compared to Billups, who had lived his entire pre-Detroit career at the 2.

Taking off the two I'd take off - Marbury and Hinrich, and adding Nash and Francis, you've still got a valid point in that 5 of the 8 were sophs.  

And I'd argue Payton is still among the elite level at point, in front of Hinrich, Miller, and even Bibby.

 

[Skandery]

Figures you'd leave out Steve Nash. And I object to excluding Steve Francis, who has played only a miniscule amount of minutes at the 2, especially compared to Billups, who had lived his entire pre-Detroit career at the 2.

Taking off the two I'd take off - Marbury and Hinrich, and adding Nash and Francis, you've still got a valid point in that 5 of the 8 were sophs.

Oops....I didn't mean to leave Nash off, okay lets kick Hinrich off.  I still refuse to kick Marbury off just because all his teams suck.  

 

And I'd argue Payton is still among the elite level at point, in front of Hinrich, Miller, and even Bibby.

Remember this conversation should I ever propose a trade to you in our league. B)  
 

[ziggy]

And I'd argue Payton is still among the elite level at point, in front of Hinrich, Miller, and even Bibby.

Payton is better than Hinrich, Andre Miller and Mike Bibby?  I am sorry, but not a chance.  Just a few years ago yes, but no way today.

[Joe Vancil]

Payton has had one year in Phil's triangle in LA, and one year with a franchise that most felt was a losing franchise.  I'm far from ready to take him out of the elite-level point guards.

Granted, he's turning 37 - tomorrow, in fact - but the guy is still the best rotational defender in the league at point guard.  If I'm a team that uses that sort of scheme, I'm grabbing this guy in a heartbeat.  And on top of that, he's still a good passer, and his shooting is within .003 of his career average.  And among the most noticeable drops in terms of numbers is MINUTES.

If you're a point guard, and you're a gifted passer, you can stick around in the league - as Stockton and Mark Jackson have proven in recent memory.  And where is Payton among the all-time passers?  #6 - behind Stockton, Jackson, Magic, Oscar Roberston, and Isiah Thomas.  And the 554 assists he needs to pass up Thomas isn't too far of a stretch for the current season (depending on where he ends up).

Why a team like HOUSTON or INDIANA isn't beating down Payton's door is beyond me.  Houston wants DAMON STOUDAMIRE over Payton?  Give me a break.

And, Skander, keep in mind that I TRIED to pry Gary Payton out of your hot little hands two years ago, and ended up having to settle Andre Miller instead (in exchange for Corey Maggette) - just to solidify my team in terms of steals and assists.  Just don't think that I'm going to give up NASH to get him.

And trust me, I *WILL* remember this conversation - ESPECIALLY if you end up drafting him...AGAIN.
 

[Skandery]

Payton has had one year in Phil's triangle in LA, and one year with a franchise that most felt was a losing franchise. I'm far from ready to take him out of the elite-level point guards.

To say Payton is an elite-level point guard at this point in his career is completely assonine and I'll prove it.  

Granted, he's turning 37 - tomorrow, in fact - but the guy is still the best rotational defender in the league at point guard. If I'm a team that uses that sort of scheme, I'm grabbing this guy in a heartbeat. And on top of that, he's still a good passer, and his shooting is within .003 of his career average. And among the most noticeable drops in terms of numbers is MINUTES.

Once a defensive player of the year winner, now Payton merits no consideration for even second team All-Defense, NONE.  His steal number have been on a steady decline for the last three years.  Last year his per game average was half of his career average and a third of what he was getting during Seattle's heyday.  Less noticeable is that last year he averaged 1 foul per game less than his career average.  This tells me he isn't nearly as involved as he once was rotationally and his once trademark man-to-man ball hawking defense has become less intense and less effective as evidenced by his ejection last year when Speedy Claxton was lighting him up.  SPEEDY CLAXTON!  

 

If you're a point guard, and you're a gifted passer, you can stick around in the league - as Stockton and Mark Jackson have proven in recent memory. And where is Payton among the all-time passers? #6 - behind Stockton, Jackson, Magic, Oscar Roberston, and Isiah Thomas. And the 554 assists he needs to pass up Thomas isn't too far of a stretch for the current season (depending on where he ends up).

His assists were on the decline for three years running before it took .5 apg upswing last year, and I'm going to credit that to Doc Rivers run-n-gun style (as opposed to Phil's triangle).  Last years average of 6 apg was 2/3s of what he was getting year in and year out between 1998 and 2002.  As for his career assist totals, the guy has had a magnificent 15 year career.  If Payton isn't on the all time list after 15 years (most of them as a starter), he'd be just another journeyman veteran.  

 

Why a team like HOUSTON or INDIANA isn't beating down Payton's door is beyond me. Houston wants DAMON STOUDAMIRE over Payton? Give me a break.

 

The reason no one is banging down his door is the fact that it is quite obvious to anyone who looks at Payton's situation objectively that his all-star days are behind him.  The days of it being a toss up between Payton and Kidd as the best PG in the league are over!

 

And, Skander, keep in mind that I TRIED to pry Gary Payton out of your hot little hands two years ago, and ended up having to settle Andre Miller instead (in exchange for Corey Maggette) - just to solidify my team in terms of steals and assists. Just don't think that I'm going to give up NASH to get him.

And in retrospect, I should've taken that trade.  In fact, I've admitted many many times that the trade of Richard Jefferson to JW for Gary Payton was a humongous mistake on my part.  I let the fact that he was the starting point guard on my favorite team all-time cloud my judgement.  When he had good games, I used it as an excuse to say to myself he'll bounce back.  Well, he hasn't yet.  

I love Gary Payton as much as the next guy and have nothing but the utmost respect for what the guy as done for the league and the kind of career he's had.  Watching him go from the brash youngster to one of the most gifted point guards in the league was amazing.  I'm sure when his career is over, he'll go down on an exclusive list of PGs.  But the stonecold, non-emotional, truth is that he is no better than a solid role player, today.  So any team looking for solid but not spectacular or elite-level production from the PG spot or backup PG spot would be lucky to grab Payton, just don't expect an All-Star.  

 

And trust me, I *WILL* remember this conversation - ESPECIALLY if you end up drafting him...AGAIN.

I'll make you a deal right here in now, should you end up with any of the PG on my list (Nash excluded) and I end up with Payton, I'll trade you 1 for 1 straight up, no questions asked, and you can hold this as a promise.  Deal?  
 

[Joe Vancil]

No way I'm taking Payton for Kidd or Davis.

Situationally, I'll take Payton for Marbury, Hinrich, and Miller.  But it's situational.  I guess I should include Arenas and Billups in that, too, but it's hard to imagine being so far ahead in so many categories that I'd want to solidify a couple.

I'll do Bibby for Payton.  

However, I'm not making any deals until I see 1) what my team has, 2) what my team needs, and 3) where Payton goes and how much he plays this year.

Furthermore, fantasy basketball causes a lot of folks to overrate the real value of a player like Marbury, while underrating a player like Payton - as you well know.


As for your look at Payton's numbers, I don't see any season where Payton averaged 9.15 assists.  And Payton's big numbers came under Paul "What defense?" Westphal and Nate McMillan - when offense was all Seattle really had to work with.  Not surprisingly, those are also Payton's highest scoring years.  And, amazingly enough, they correspond with the drop in steals.

And I'm not sure where you saw Payton averaging 3.42 steals per game - the 3x 1.14 of the past season.

The 3-year decline you speak of was from 8.1 to 8.8 to 8.3 to 5.5 to 6.1.

I think we can throw out the year in the triangle - don't you?  6.1 assists in Boston is somewhat concerning.  And you, of course, feel that this is because he's playing in an up-tempo offense.  This after considering not reporting at all to the Celtics.  This after a year of playing where the main offense is Paul Pierce making at least two one-on-one moves before taking a shot.  NO ONE is going to get assists in that environment.  

As for a drop to 8.3, that would have made him tie for 3rd in the league (with Jason Kidd) this year.

If you want to look at something of value, look at Payton's assist numbers per minute.  

2001 - .1989
2002 - .2233
2003 - .2067
2004 - .1589
2005 - .1846

2005 might be a bit concerning.  Then again, if you're going to call last year's Celtics run-and-gun - what are you going to call George Karl's Sonics and Bucks - light-speed-and-H-bomb?

Per minute, Payton is *STILL* ahead of Mike Bibby.  Ahead of Gilbert Arenas.  Ahead of Kirk Hinrich. Ahead of Chauncey Billups.  Ahead of Francis, Parker, and Terry.  And yes, Houston, he's ahead of Stoudamire.

That's with LAST YEAR'S numbers.

Payton isn't what he was - a level above the elite where only he, Kidd, and Stockton belonged during his hey-day.  He's just a step back of that.

And as for his age, let's keep in mind that Stockton and Jackson produced at Payton's age.  And the players "most similar" to Payton, from basketballreference.com?  Scottie Pippen - who played until age 38; Derek Harper - who played until age 37; and Terry Porter - who played until age 39.  Harper was still a starter when he was playing.

Granted, Payton's not got long left, but he's probably got 2 more years as a high-level performer, with a couple of years on top of that, if he's willing to take a job as a role player.


 

[Skandery]

Before I start, I'd like to say that however stubborn I ever think you are, you still manage to bowl me over with disbelief at just how stubborn you are, its incredible.  But hey work is slow, so here we go:

No way I'm taking Payton for Kidd or Davis.

Something we can agree on...

Situationally, I'll take Payton for Marbury, Hinrich, and Miller. But it's situational. I guess I should include Arenas and Billups in that, too, but it's hard to imagine being so far ahead in so many categories that I'd want to solidify a couple.

So you'd do the trade.......disclaimer, disclaimer, disclaimer,.......but I love your thought "....so far ahead in so many categories...." why are these inferior players outperforming Gary in SO MANY CATEGORIES??

I'll do Bibby for Payton.

DONE.....I'm holding you to this.  

However, I'm not making any deals until I see 1) what my team has, 2) what my team needs, and 3) where Payton goes and how much he plays this year.

More disclaimers......geez. It might be easier and less time consuming if you'd just agree with me that there is no way you would do any of the trades....EVER.

As for your look at Payton's numbers, I don't see any season where Payton averaged 9.15 assists. And Payton's big numbers came under Paul "What defense?" Westphal and Nate McMillan - when offense was all Seattle really had to work with. Not surprisingly, those are also Payton's highest scoring years. And, amazingly enough, they correspond with the drop in steals.

Check the link: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/259/career

In 2002, 8.8 assists.  Off by .35 assists
In 2001, 9.0 assists.  Off by .15 assists.
In 1999, 8.9 assists.  Off by .25 assists.

Average (without his 2000 down year) 8.9 assists.  Off by .25 assists.  You caught me in my lie, Joe.  Let me rephrase, "Last years average APG was 6.1/8.9ths of what he was getting between 1999 and 2002, exlcluding 2000."  Better?

And I'm not sure where you saw Payton averaging 3.42 steals per game - the 3x 1.14 of the past season.

Check the link again, I called 1995 "Seattle's Heydey", he averaged 2.9 SPG, last year he average 1.1 SPG.  I rounded one number to 3 and one number 1 and called it a third.  You caught me in another lie.....somebody help me.....I just can't stop?  

The 3-year decline you speak of was from 8.1 to 8.8 to 8.3 to 5.5 to 6.1.

Back to the link we go.  The 3-year decline I spoke of was:  

2001 - 9.0
2002 - 8.3  (Hint: you have to do some math)
2003 - 5.5

I think we can throw out the year in the triangle - don't you? 6.1 assists in Boston is somewhat concerning. And you, of course, feel that this is because he's playing in an up-tempo offense. This after considering not reporting at all to the Celtics. This after a year of playing where the main offense is Paul Pierce making at least two one-on-one moves before taking a shot. NO ONE is going to get assists in that environment.

You're right, Joe.  NO ONE is going to get assists in that environment, that's why Paul Pierce and Antoine Walker are among the league leaders in assists at their positions (SG and PF), because NO ONE gets assists in that environment.  

If you want to look at something of value, look at Payton's assist numbers per minute.

2001 - .1989
2002 - .2233
2003 - .2067
2004 - .1589
2005 - .1846

A steady decline for three straight years between 2002 and 2004.  Thanks for helping to prove my point, I had forgot to mention those statistics.

Per minute, Payton is *STILL* ahead of Mike Bibby. Ahead of Gilbert Arenas. Ahead of Kirk Hinrich. Ahead of Chauncey Billups. Ahead of Francis, Parker, and Terry. And yes, Houston, he's ahead of Stoudamire.

I always love debunking these arguments, Tyson Chandler is a better per minute rebounder than Ben Wallace and has virtually the same blocks per minute, Adonal Foyle absolutely smokes Ben in Blocks per minute.  Guess that means they're better Centers.  

Payton isn't what he was - a level above the elite where only he, Kidd, and Stockton belonged during his hey-day. He's just a step back of that.

So now there's elite-level and a level above the elite.  Is there a level above the level above the elite-level.  My limited scope of the world has elite level (all-star calibre), starter, role player, and bust.

And as for his age, let's keep in mind that Stockton and Jackson produced at Payton's age. And the players "most similar" to Payton, from basketballreference.com? Scottie Pippen - who played until age 38; Derek Harper - who played until age 37; and Terry Porter - who played until age 39. Harper was still a starter when he was playing.

So if he goes the way of Scottie Pippen, he's got one season left before retiring  Terry Porter, he's got 2 season's left before retiring, and Derek Harper he'll sign the contract and then declare that he is retiring.  Geez Houston where are you with that offer.  

 

Granted, Payton's not got long left, but he's probably got 2 more years as a high-level performer, with a couple of years on top of that, if he's willing to take a job as a role player.

I don't consider 11.6 ppg and 6.1 apg high level performance.  But you're right, if he takes a job as a role player (starting or not) with a team than he's got a few solid years ahead of him.

[rickortreat]

I think Peyton has lost more than a step.  I would rather have Speedy Claxton than Peyton!

He WAS a good player, but I think those days are over.  In addition some stupid GM might want to pay him more than he's worth based on his name, not realizing how far his game had deteriorated.  IMO. that's what Boston got, not the Glove.

I wouldn't trade Willie Green or John Salmons for Gary now.

[Joe Vancil]

Skander,

Before I start, I'd like to say that however stubborn I ever think you are, you still manage to bowl me over with disbelief at just how stubborn you are, its incredible.

Stubborn is a two-way street.

Check the link: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/259/career

In 2002, 8.8 assists. Off by .35 assists
In 2001, 9.0 assists. Off by .15 assists.
In 1999, 8.9 assists. Off by .25 assists.

Average (without his 2000 down year) 8.9 assists. Off by .25 assists. You caught me in my lie, Joe. Let me rephrase, "Last years average APG was 6.1/8.9ths of what he was getting between 1999 and 2002, exlcluding 2000." Better?

Better, although not quite what I would call accurate.  You are throwing out the down year, correct.  Yet experience has taught me that when I look at a statistic you throw out, LOOK FOR EXAGGERATION.  We'll get back to that point in a bit.  First - a request:

Would you PLEASE stop using that awful Yahoo web site for your stats?  You know - the one that misnumbers everything by one year, confusing the hell out of me (AND YOU, EVEN THOUGH YOU WON'T ADMIT IT), and practically anyone else who'd look at it?  Here are a couple of sites that are MUCH better:

Basketball Reference

Official NBA Website

Let's get to those numbers of yours, shall we?

The number you attribute to 1999 is for 1999-2000.  You leave out 2000-01.  You use 2001-02, and then you use ONLY the Seattle stats for 2002-03.  (I told you that site confused you.  You'll use it correctly here in a moment.)

When you do the REAL numbers - all of them - you'll see:

1999-2000:  8.9
2000-2001:  8.1
2001-2002:  9.0
2002-2003:  8.3

That turns out to be closer to a 30% decline.

So how come I'm being so picky?  Because you did what you like to do:  pick the three absolute highest values you see, and use them - throwing out the one in the sequence you see that isn't quite a fit.

Back to the link we go. The 3-year decline I spoke of was:

2001 - 9.0
2002 - 8.3 (Hint: you have to do some math)
2003 - 5.5

Going from 8.1 in 2000-01 to the 9.0-8.3-5.5 sequence you mentioned is *NOT* a THREE YEAR DECLINE, and you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who agrees with that.  HOWEVER, if you insist, I'll give Payton credit for a three-year decline if you'll give him credit for a TWO-YEAR INCREASE!

2003-04 - 5.5
2004-05 - 6.1

With a reduction in minutes, mind you!

Again - exaggeration.

You're right, Joe. NO ONE is going to get assists in that environment, that's why Paul Pierce and Antoine Walker are among the league leaders in assists at their positions (SG and PF), because NO ONE gets assists in that environment.

Antoine Walker's 3.0 assists (in Boston) and Paul Pierce's 4.2 assists per game are among the tops in the league for their positions?

I'll leave out Iverson, Wade, Francis, and Terry for 2-guards, although you're also throwing them out of point guards, as well...and McGrady did play a lot at small forward - all of which are ahead of Pierce..  Rip Hamilton is ahead of Pierce, as is either Hinrich or Duhon - whichever of them you want to call which - as is Jamal Crawford (if Marbury is the point guard....) and Vince Carter is tied.   Bryant is also ahead of him, although he didn't play enough games or get enough assists to make the official list for assists per game.   I'll give you Pierce.

Garnett and Webber are ahead of Walker and Nowitzki is at Walker's assist level in Boston.  

Of course, you glossed over the point - Walker and Pierce are NOTORIOUS BALL HOGS.  *THEY* get assists because they pound the air out of the ball, and throw it to someone else for quick-hitting plays.  However, Payton's role is to PUT THE BALL IN THEIR HANDS.  He's not going to get assists in Boston.  It's almost as bad as the freakin' triangle.

A steady decline for three straight years between 2002 and 2004. Thanks for helping to prove my point, I had forgot to mention those statistics.

When counting, most of us start with the number "1".  See above, and reference "exaggeration."

I always love debunking these arguments, Tyson Chandler is a better per minute rebounder than Ben Wallace and has virtually the same blocks per minute, Adonal Foyle absolutely smokes Ben in Blocks per minute. Guess that means they're better Centers.

Interesting that you pick Ben Wallace - who had, by most people's estimations, an off-year, despite the DPOY hardware.  However, of the following players:

Mike Bibby, Gilbert Arenas, Kirk Hinrich, Chauncey Billups, Steve Francis, Tony Parker, Damon Stoudamire, Gary Payton, Ben Wallace, Adonal Foyle, and Tyson Chandler

 - of those, how many both started and played the majority of minutes in most of their games?

**singing** Two of these things are not like the others.... **singing stops**

When you take a limited minute or bench player, you know that statistics are a little screwy.  Payton, in all of the numbers I listed, both STARTED and PLAYED at minimum 33 of the 48 minutes of a MINIMUM of 77 of the 82 games of each season.  Those numbers tend to be a bit more valid that a 27 minute a game benchy or  a starter in 50 games who plays less than half the game (21.8 minutes).

So if he goes the way of Scottie Pippen, he's got one season left before retiring Terry Porter, he's got 2 season's left before retiring, and Derek Harper he'll sign the contract and then declare that he is retiring. Geez Houston where are you with that offer.

So, is your argument that he's too old to be a top-level player?  Stockton refutes that.  Or is it that he's fallen off from elite level?  Your numbers show a decline, but FAR from any sort of critical drop-off.

I don't consider 11.6 ppg and 6.1 apg high level performance. But you're right, if he takes a job as a role player (starting or not) with a team than he's got a few solid years ahead of him.

Neither do I.  I simply maintain that that's more a product of enviornment than age.

           

[ziggy]

This is beginning to sound like Dan Akroyd and Jane Curtin :bash: .  Joe you ignorant slut  :rofl: .

[Skandery]

Derek, I apologize for doing this to your board but now I'm morbidly curious as to when Joe will concede that Payton is no longer an all-star calibre, or elite-level, or Top-tier PG in the NBA today, if ever?

Stubborn is a two-way street.

Joe, with you, Stubborn is a 16-lane Freeway.

Would you PLEASE stop using that awful Yahoo web site for your stats? You know - the one that misnumbers everything by one year, confusing the hell out of me (AND YOU, EVEN THOUGH YOU WON'T ADMIT IT), and practically anyone else who'd look at it? Here are a couple of sites that are MUCH better:

Basketball Reference

Official NBA Website

Thanks for the links, the Basketball Reference one is pretty cool.  Not perfect.  I don't like how it calls the 02-03 season Milwaukee when we know that he played 52 games in Seattle and 28 games in Milwaukee that season.  That's minor, very cool site, I like how it averages the whole season for you.  Yahoo gives you averages per team no matter if its the same year, makes it trickier to see trends at a glance.  

The number you attribute to 1999 is for 1999-2000. You leave out 2000-01. You use 2001-02, and then you use ONLY the Seattle stats for 2002-03. (I told you that site confused you. You'll use it correctly here in a moment.)

Nope, wrong again, I didn't just use the Seattle stats in 02-03 (that was 8.8 apg), I used his total year average of 8.3, if your curious about the equation, here ya go.  

((8.8 X 52) + (7.4 X 28)) / 80 = 8.3 apg, the number I reported.

If we go back to the numbers I reported during the decline, they were, ONCE AGAIN:

01-02 - 9.0 apg
02-03 - 8.3 apg
03-04 - 5.5 apg

Now lets go back to the reason I threw out the 8.1 apg in 00-01.  You see Joe in statistical analysis one detects a pattern in the numbers and derives a theory.  If one gets too bogged down in the details that don't fit the pattern absolutely perfectly, one may lose sight of the big picture.  So when I see numbers such as these:

98-99 - 8.7
99-00 - 8.9
00-01 - 8.1
01-02 - 9.0


The larger picture is that Payton during these years was one of the elite-level point guards.  Continuously amongst the leaders in assist production.  Was I maliciously exaggerating and looking to mislead when I threw out the 8.1.  NO, I was simply not letting it get in the way of the larger pattern, the truth behind the numbers.  That Payton was so efficient at getting assists during this time that it was a good bet that he'd average damn near 9 assists for ya.  Then I look at a number like this one.  

02-03 - 8.3

Seems to be comparable but it is closer to 8 than 9 (and that's a little concerning), I'll give Gary the benefit of the doubt.  After all he was averaging 8.8 (damn near 9) in Seattle before he was traded to those woeful Bucks where he averaged 7.4, well below his usual mark.  Blame the Bucks.  Then I take a look at this number

03-04 - 5.5

Uh oh, this is almost a 3 assist drop from a year ago and well below what we used to count on him for (damn near 9) a few years ago.  It's getting worrisome.  Then I take a look at this number.

04-05 - 6.1

Seems like our boy Gary failed to reach that 8 to 9 assists that everyone got so used to him getting.  What?!? You mean he's 36, well, no wonder.  It's incredible that he still putting up these kind of assist numbers.  Well looks like age caught up with our glove, don't think we'll be seeing him in that 8 to 9 range ever again.

Antoine Walker's 3.0 assists (in Boston) and Paul Pierce's 4.2 assists per game are among the tops in the league for their positions?

I'll leave out Iverson, Wade, Francis, and Terry for 2-guards, although you're also throwing them out of point guards, as well...and McGrady did play a lot at small forward - all of which are ahead of Pierce.. Rip Hamilton is ahead of Pierce, as is either Hinrich or Duhon - whichever of them you want to call which - as is Jamal Crawford (if Marbury is the point guard....) and Vince Carter is tied. Bryant is also ahead of him, although he didn't play enough games or get enough assists to make the official list for assists per game. I'll give you Pierce.

Garnett and Webber are ahead of Walker and Nowitzki is at Walker's assist level in Boston.

Okay, I'll just say it again, I've had to repeat myself alot:

"blah blah.........., that's why Paul Pierce and Antoine Walker are among the league leaders in assists at their positions (SG and PF).......blah blah blah"

Mike Bibby, Gilbert Arenas, Kirk Hinrich, Chauncey Billups, Steve Francis, Tony Parker, Damon Stoudamire, Gary Payton, Ben Wallace, Adonal Foyle, and Tyson Chandler

- of those, how many both started and played the majority of minutes in most of their games?

**singing** Two of these things are not like the others.... **singing stops**

Jason Kidd, Baron Davis, Stephon Marbury, Steve Nash, Gilbert Arenas, Mike Bibby, Gary Payton

**singing** One of these things is not like the other...**singing stops**

So, is your argument that he's too old to be a top-level player? Stockton refutes that. Or is it that he's fallen off from elite level? Your numbers show a decline, but FAR from any sort of critical drop-off.

My argument is that Gary Payton is no longer an elite-level Point Guard.  He is no longer an all-star, a franchise player, he is no longer even in the top 10 of starting point guards.  You can credit the drop-off to whatever you want, malcontentedness, age, environment, whatever....it's just fact.  

PPG -  Career: 17.6         Last Year: 11.3
APG -  Career: 7.2          Last Year: 6.1
SPG -  Career: 2.0          Last Year: 1.1

If that isn't a critical drop off what would you call it.