Miami/Detroit game . . .

[Guest_Randy]

This was about the best I have seen Detroit play all year long:

Crashing boards, playing stifling defense on Wade, taking advantages of mismatches and looking incredible on offense.

If Detroit can continue that, the series is theres.  However, I can't believe that Detroit is going to outrebound the Heat by 12 every game in this series.  Rasheed Wallace (not known for his rebounding) had twice the rebounds that Shaq did.  If Shaq doesn't garner double digit rebounds, it doesn't bode well for Miami.  

But I also can't see Detroit, a team known for sputtering inconsistent offense, to put those kind of points on the board every night.  I do think they will continue to ride Sheed -- they need Haslem to pressure him on the exterior and force him to drive to Shaq/Mourning.

When they started the game, I was very surprised how much they were allowing Prince to maul Wade -- Prince had his hands all over Wade and no call.  Then Wade came down to the other end and they called a touch foul.  The officiating wasn't horrible but if they allow Prince to put his hands all over Wade before (and after) he gets the ball -- it's going to be a VERY tough series for Miami.  I don't see that happening, however, because Van Gundy will complain and refs will take a look at tapes.  

I am amazed sometimes how a team or player who is known for their "defense" will allowed some kind of extra exemption for hand checks while other players are called for it.  Prince on Wade and Bowen on Ray Allen are two great examples on how these players use their hands/bodies to keep the player off balance and in check.  Now, this kind of thing has gone on for a long time -- Rick Fox on Peja a couple of years ago is a great example -- however, this year the "hand check foul" was instituted and called quite regularly in the regular season -- and now it has been thrown out the window.  That really bothers me!!!  Yet another rule on the rule book that is put in writing and then ignored!!!

[westkoast]

All good defenders get away with hand checking and alot of touching.  Bowen gets away with it just as much as Prince does.  Both have the rep as top notch defenders in this league.  IMO it should be overlooked for the most part (but not too overboard) because this is the playoffs.  Hard, physical basketball should be the name of the game.  The physical aspect of this game has became so watered down that what Prince was doing last night was considered excessive by some (not actually you Randy but others I was watching some of the game with)

Shaq is still less than 80%.  I understand its a confidence booster to have him suit up and actually play the game but is it better to have him sit out the first game to be stronger for the 2nd and 3rd or do you ride him at 80%?  Tough decision.  He spent alot of energy last night and they still end up losing.

[Guest_Randy]

wk,

This is my point -- what is the purpose of instituting a rule that you KNOW you aren't going to enforce come playoff time?  Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis are two players who benefitted GREATLY from the "handchecking" rule that was instituted this season.  Yet, come playoff time, that rule is thrown out the window.  Hey, I don't have a problem with tough physical defense but if that's what you are going to allow -- don't get players use to something different in the regular season only to change it come playoff time.  

Also, I really don't have any problem with the defense of Bowen and Prince -- Michael Cooper was one of my all time favorite players and he was the same type of player -- what I have a problem with is players like Bowen and Prince being allowed to grab, push, and body up and then Wade gets called for a touch (hand checking) foul on the other end of the court).  

What I want from the refs is fairness in the calls -- and that simply isn't happening.  The reffing wasn't the reason for Miami's loss but it bothers me that it's allowed at one end of the court and not the other!

[SPURSX3]

very interesting game last night, I agree with Randy that I dont think Detroit can sustain that level of play for the whole series - let alone this series AND the next - I still see miami winning this series but I do hope that Detroit wears them down nicely before taking on whoever comes out of the West this year.  Detroit looked impressive, they payed like a defending Champ should play like.  Shaq looked good but it seemed like he had no real help, detroit clamped down well on miami and got them off thier game a bit.  I think they will settle down and put the pressure on detroit in game 2.  I was not expecting the pistons to win last night, but hey more power to them.

[westkoast]

wk,

This is my point -- what is the purpose of instituting a rule that you KNOW you aren't going to enforce come playoff time?  Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis are two players who benefitted GREATLY from the "handchecking" rule that was instituted this season.  Yet, come playoff time, that rule is thrown out the window.  Hey, I don't have a problem with tough physical defense but if that's what you are going to allow -- don't get players use to something different in the regular season only to change it come playoff time.  

Also, I really don't have any problem with the defense of Bowen and Prince -- Michael Cooper was one of my all time favorite players and he was the same type of player -- what I have a problem with is players like Bowen and Prince being allowed to grab, push, and body up and then Wade gets called for a touch (hand checking) foul on the other end of the court).  

What I want from the refs is fairness in the calls -- and that simply isn't happening.  The reffing wasn't the reason for Miami's loss but it bothers me that it's allowed at one end of the court and not the other!

Randy,

If the were to take out rules they dont call then there would be no 3 second rule and no traveling rule.  They dont enforce these rules during the regular season let alone during the playoffs.  We all know that rules are bent quite a bit in the playoffs.  Physical play is allowed quite a bit more in the playoffs and this falls under that.

I agree about the touch foul on the other end.  Thats bs.  This is when refs ruin the game, by making good players feel iffy about playing hard defense in fear of a foul.

[Skandery]

It is a long-standing tradition that the Refs always have, still, and always will favor the more aggressive, physical team and the more aggressive, physical player.  There is a reason Bill Russell has eleven championships and Wilt Chamberlain has two.  There is a reason for all of Pistol Pete's genius he couldn't win one ring while Dave Cowens managed to get two.  There is a reason that Boston beat L.A in 1984 after being called a bunch of women by Bird.  There is a reason Detroit won two championships while sending Jordan home sore.  There is a reason Michael Jordan was allowed to push Bryon Russell down before taking "the last shot."  And finally there is a reason the Shaq's, Duncans (Prince's and Bowen's), will take the trophy before the Nash's, Nowitzki's, and Arenas'.  

When you play a tough, physical brand of basketball, the Refs have to adjust to that sort of play or settle on fouling out the entire squad.  Because coaches aren't going to stop coaching that way, and players aren't going to stop playing that way.  Physical play is a sizeable, albeit dubious, component of winning basketball.    

[rickortreat]

Miami lost last night because they didn't go to Shaq inside when they needed a basket.  That is just plain stupid, not to use you're unstoppable talent when you need him.

The refs are assholes.  They don't call the game fairly, and let a limited talent team like Detroit outphysical opponenents, instead of oustcoring them.  Miami is used to outscoring teams and don't have to rely on defense like Detroit does.  But Prince fouls everytime down the floor, becasue the refs allow it.  All they have to to is CALL THE FOUL, and Price will stop playing that way.  Calling the touch foul on Wade at the other end, deserves a pancake from Shaq, so you can get a ref in there who will call it FAIR.

[westkoast]

Miami lost last night because they didn't go to Shaq inside when they needed a basket.  That is just plain stupid, not to use you're unstoppable talent when you need him.

The refs are assholes.  They don't call the game fairly, and let a limited talent team like Detroit outphysical opponenents, instead of oustcoring them.  Miami is used to outscoring teams and don't have to rely on defense like Detroit does.  But Prince fouls everytime down the floor, becasue the refs allow it.  All they have to to is CALL THE FOUL, and Price will stop playing that way.  Calling the touch foul on Wade at the other end, deserves a pancake from Shaq, so you can get a ref in there who will call it FAIR.

Not to flame or anything Rick but how are you going to say go to Shaq inside then turn around and compare about players outmuscling players to win the game?

[SPURSX3]

Miami lost last night because they didn't go to Shaq inside when they needed a basket.  That is just plain stupid, not to use you're unstoppable talent when you need him.

The refs are assholes.  They don't call the game fairly, and let a limited talent team like Detroit outphysical opponenents, instead of oustcoring them.  Miami is used to outscoring teams and don't have to rely on defense like Detroit does.  But Prince fouls everytime down the floor, becasue the refs allow it.  All they have to to is CALL THE FOUL, and Price will stop playing that way.  Calling the touch foul on Wade at the other end, deserves a pancake from Shaq, so you can get a ref in there who will call it FAIR.

Not to flame or anything Rick but how are you going to say go to Shaq inside then turn around and compare about players outmuscling players to win the game?

 :hotbounce:  :fire:

uh oh, I think it's on!!


 :force:


 :rofl:
 

[Guest_Randy]

Miami lost last night because they didn't go to Shaq inside when they needed a basket.  That is just plain stupid, not to use you're unstoppable talent when you need him.

The refs are assholes.  They don't call the game fairly, and let a limited talent team like Detroit outphysical opponenents, instead of oustcoring them.  Miami is used to outscoring teams and don't have to rely on defense like Detroit does.  But Prince fouls everytime down the floor, becasue the refs allow it.  All they have to to is CALL THE FOUL, and Price will stop playing that way.  Calling the touch foul on Wade at the other end, deserves a pancake from Shaq, so you can get a ref in there who will call it FAIR.

Not to flame or anything Rick but how are you going to say go to Shaq inside then turn around and compare about players outmuscling players to win the game?

wk,

I don't think there's a double standard there -- sure, Shaq is a VERY physical player -- so don't call fouls on Prince for mauling Wade -- just don't call Wade for a touch foul (hand checking foul) at the other end of the court.  I think it's up to Wade to change his game -- I just don't like the double standard (allowing Prince to grab, hold and put his hands all over Wade -- with and without the ball and then call a hand check foul on Wade at the other end with Hamilton) -- they need to make up their mind what they are going to call and what they aren't.  Otherwise, they are giving Detroit a HUGE advantage -- Miami could do a LOT in containing Rip Hamilton if they allowed Eddie Jones to play Rip the same way they were allowing Prince to guard Wade.  

It's obvious that Shaq is hurt and his mobility is limited -- however, he HAS to pull down double digit rebounds.  NONE of Miami's big guys were in double figures for rebounds -- and both Wallace's were.  That can't happen again if Miami wants to win this series.

[rickortreat]

Shaq is perfectly capable of scoring without pushing the defender out of the way.  Besides the way they call it now, with that stupid semi circle beneath the basket, Shaq is ALLOWED to push the other player out of the way.  

[westkoast]

Miami lost last night because they didn't go to Shaq inside when they needed a basket.  That is just plain stupid, not to use you're unstoppable talent when you need him.

The refs are assholes.  They don't call the game fairly, and let a limited talent team like Detroit outphysical opponenents, instead of oustcoring them.  Miami is used to outscoring teams and don't have to rely on defense like Detroit does.  But Prince fouls everytime down the floor, becasue the refs allow it.  All they have to to is CALL THE FOUL, and Price will stop playing that way.  Calling the touch foul on Wade at the other end, deserves a pancake from Shaq, so you can get a ref in there who will call it FAIR.

Not to flame or anything Rick but how are you going to say go to Shaq inside then turn around and compare about players outmuscling players to win the game?

wk,

I don't think there's a double standard there -- sure, Shaq is a VERY physical player -- so don't call fouls on Prince for mauling Wade -- just don't call Wade for a touch foul (hand checking foul) at the other end of the court.  I think it's up to Wade to change his game -- I just don't like the double standard (allowing Prince to grab, hold and put his hands all over Wade -- with and without the ball and then call a hand check foul on Wade at the other end with Hamilton) -- they need to make up their mind what they are going to call and what they aren't.  Otherwise, they are giving Detroit a HUGE advantage -- Miami could do a LOT in containing Rip Hamilton if they allowed Eddie Jones to play Rip the same way they were allowing Prince to guard Wade.  

It's obvious that Shaq is hurt and his mobility is limited -- however, he HAS to pull down double digit rebounds.  NONE of Miami's big guys were in double figures for rebounds -- and both Wallace's were.  That can't happen again if Miami wants to win this series.

Randy,

I was directly replying to Rick.  This had nothing to do with what you were talking about or what the thread was about.  Shaq is the most dominate player in the game because of his strength and his ability to use that effectively.  Rick was mad because the Pistons use physical play to get the job done....then said that Miami was dumb for not getting the ball to Shaq.  Well, Shaqs game is using physical play and his size to get the job done.

You and I are in total agreement about the calls.  My only gripe is that what Prince is doing (to extent) should not be a foul.  They should call it both ways.

[westkoast]

Shaq is perfectly capable of scoring without pushing the defender out of the way.  Besides the way they call it now, with that stupid semi circle beneath the basket, Shaq is ALLOWED to push the other player out of the way.

Sure he is but how can you be the most dominating player in the league with your back to the basket and not use physical play to your advantage?  Tired Shaq uses his weight and strength.  100% Shaq often comes with the finesse moves and the footwork.

This isnt an argument on whether its a foul or not.  I am just saying that Detroit and Shaq both use physical play to get it done.

[Skandery]

The refs are assholes. They don't call the game fairly, and let a limited talent team like Detroit outphysical opponenents, instead of oustcoring them. Miami is used to outscoring teams and don't have to rely on defense like Detroit does. But Prince fouls everytime down the floor, becasue the refs allow it. All they have to to is CALL THE FOUL, and Price will stop playing that way. Calling the touch foul on Wade at the other end, deserves a pancake from Shaq, so you can get a ref in there who will call it FAIR.

First of all, I don't believe that Detroit is a "limited talent".  They have a fast, capable offensive talent in Chauncey Billups, a Finals MVP.  A dominating defensive center in Ben Wallace, is it three-time Defensive Award winner?  A good rebounding, good shot-blocking power forward who can play back to the basket AND SHOOT THREES!  One of the best young defensive talents in Prince.  And Rip Hamilton who can go for 20 points just coming off screens.  If that's limited, who in the NBA isn't??

Secondly, a-lot is being made of this Prince has his hands all over Wade and Bowen had his hands all over Allen.  If Wade had gotten away with a hold and Prince had gotten the touch foul on the other end, it wouldn't garner enough interest to mention, let alone have a thread about.  It's sad that Refs aren't more consistent but I'm not going to give all the "questionable" foul calls to the "perceived" lesser talent.  In a perfect world, you want both calls to be called against Prince AND Wade, or both to be no-calls.  But everytime I see a touch foul being called, I don't want it ALWAYS going against Prince and Bowen.  If we're going to be inconsistent, let's be as consistently inconsistent as possible.  Personally I think Wade will get all the benefit of the doubt calls, just being who he is, to off-set any kind of charity you guys think the Refs are giving Tayshaun Prince.  

     

[rickortreat]

A lot of this comes down to the style of play you want to see in the NBA.  It is a matter of fact that the Pistons win ugly.  They prefer a slower game, at least when defending you, and use every dirty trick in the book to disrupt your offense.  They pack the zone, and clog the lane,  the clutch and grab at your shooters and run over your players to get to spots on the floor.  

That's not the way the game should be played.  It's boring for fans and it's also illegal, provided the refs call it the right way.

Basketball is suppossed to be a game of crisp passes, forcing the defense to work hard to stay with and in front of their men.  It isn't about preventing a player from shooting by grabbing him to prevent him from getting to a spot, or fouling him while he isn't shooting.  It also isn't about pounding a defensive player into giving up space becasue he's between you and the basket.

This is why the NBA sucks:  The refs don't call the game right, and they're inconsistent in their calls.  Refs shouldn't pay attention to who the players are, whether they're stars or not.  They should simply call a foul a foul no matter who commits it.  Then you could find out who the real stars are, the ones talented enough to be successful even without the benefit of the calls.

It's not suprising there are fights in the NBA,  it surprising there aren't even more fights considering what some defensive players are able to get away with.  Basketball has become animal ball thanks to the refereees ineptitude and unwillingness to call a charge a charge, an over the back, an over the back, and a quick reach-in a foul.  And it's not a suprise that DETROIT was involved in the fight as they are the worst offender of this bending of the rules in the league.