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PhillyArena Community => NBA Discussion => Topic started by: Randy on August 06, 2012, 07:33:34 AM
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I will have to get back to this later but saw an all-time Lakers team someone put together that I hated. It brought back some thoughts on different teams that have had some great talent over the years.
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Okay, here is my All-Time Lakers line-up:
Starting Roster:
PG - Magic Johnson (arguably the best PG to ever play the game)
SG - Kobe Bryant (not the best SG of all time but being #2 isn't that bad when the #1 is MJ)
SF - Elgin Baylor (tempted to put Worthy here but Baylor is better -- even if he was a little short for SF -- his game sure wasn't - single handedly brought the Lakers squad back from the dead)
PF - Pau Gasol (best PF to ever play for the Lakers. Actually, PF is the Lakers least position of depth but Pau is rock solid here)
C - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (IMO, the best center to ever play the game. Great shot blocker, rebounder and unstoppable offensively)
Bench:
PG - Jerry West (still the trademark of the NBA - Mr. Clutch is amazing to have to come off the bench)
SG - Gail Goodrich (this guy was great and is often overlooked in Lakers history but he was good enough and he got us the rights to Magic Johnson)
SF - James Worthy - (Loved being able to watch James Worthy - this guy would have been a superstar on most other teams but was a star with the Lakers - good shooter, great scorer)
PF - Vern Mikkelson (this guy is old-school but he was the rock solid and IMO is the Lakers #2 PF of all time)
C - Shaquille O'Neal (wow, Shaq coming off the bench -- what would he do to most back-up centers?)
Reserve:
SG/SF - Michael Cooper (I was almost tempted to put him before Goodrich but I think it's because he is one of my favorite players of all time)
C - Wilt Chamberlain (okay, this is a struggle since he really didn't come to LA before he was advanced in years but he is still quite a guy to come in for 7-10 minutes a game)
Personal Favorites:
Jamaal Wilkes -- love to watch this guy shoot
Robert Horry -- always hit big shots for the Lakers but not good enough to make this roster
Overall - I like this teams chance against any team ever -- fantastic offensively, good defensively (interior defense is phenomenal and several outstanding perimeter defenders along with some that weren't so great - like Magic, lol), fanastic passing, incredible rebounding and shotblocking. How about this team vs. the 2012 Redundant Team? lol
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I made this decision based upon win shares and also offensive rating (points scored per 100 possessions) and defensive rating (points allowed per 100 possessions), during their peak years, with the Blazers.
Starters
PG - Terry Porter 120 Off 106 Def .178 WS/48 min
SG - Clyde Drexler 116 Off 104 Def .201 WS/48 min
SF - Kiki Vandeweghe 122 Off 112 Def .173 WS/48 Min
PF - Buck Williams 119 Off 104 Def .148 WS/48 min
C - Arvydas Sabonis 112 Off 96 Def .210 WS/48 min
Bench
PG - Rod Strickland 112 Off 105 Def .153 WS/48 Min (this was for his 4 years in Portland)
SG - Brandon Roy 120 Off 109 Def .148 WS/48 min (only had 2-1/2 peak years)
SF - LaMarcus Aldridge 114 Off 107 Def .158 Ws/48 min (Ok this is a stretch to play him at SF, but so what)
PF - Rasheed Wallace 109 Off 100 Def .163 WS/48 Min (I went with Buck Williams because he was +15 points to Rasheed only being +9. Buck's role was different, but he played his role better)
C - Bill Walton no offensive rating 90 Def .212 WS/48 Min (only had 1-3/4 peak years, Sabonis had 5 nearly identical seasons)
I wonder how this group would fair against the 1992, 1996, 2008, and 2012 Dream Teams? I will work on that.
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Okay, here is my All-Time Lakers line-up:
Starting Roster:
PG - Magic Johnson (arguably the best PG to ever play the game)
SG - Kobe Bryant (not the best SG of all time but being #2 isn't that bad when the #1 is MJ)
SF - Elgin Baylor (tempted to put Worthy here but Baylor is better -- even if he was a little short for SF -- his game sure wasn't - single handedly brought the Lakers squad back from the dead)
PF - Pau Gasol (best PF to ever play for the Lakers. Actually, PF is the Lakers least position of depth but Pau is rock solid here)
C - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (IMO, the best center to ever play the game. Great shot blocker, rebounder and unstoppable offensively)
Bench:
PG - Jerry West (still the trademark of the NBA - Mr. Clutch is amazing to have to come off the bench)
SG - Gail Goodrich (this guy was great and is often overlooked in Lakers history but he was good enough and he got us the rights to Magic Johnson)
SF - James Worthy - (Loved being able to watch James Worthy - this guy would have been a superstar on most other teams but was a star with the Lakers - good shooter, great scorer)
PF - Vern Mikkelson (this guy is old-school but he was the rock solid and IMO is the Lakers #2 PF of all time)
C - Shaquille O'Neal (wow, Shaq coming off the bench -- what would he do to most back-up centers?)
Reserve:
SG/SF - Michael Cooper (I was almost tempted to put him before Goodrich but I think it's because he is one of my favorite players of all time)
C - Wilt Chamberlain (okay, this is a struggle since he really didn't come to LA before he was advanced in years but he is still quite a guy to come in for 7-10 minutes a game)
Personal Favorites:
Jamaal Wilkes -- love to watch this guy shoot
Robert Horry -- always hit big shots for the Lakers but not good enough to make this roster
Overall - I like this teams chance against any team ever -- fantastic offensively, good defensively (interior defense is phenomenal and several outstanding perimeter defenders along with some that weren't so great - like Magic, lol), fanastic passing, incredible rebounding and shotblocking. How about this team vs. the 2012 Redundant Team? lol
I will take your team using Win Shares / 48 minutes for a 4 years peak and compare them to each dream team based upon their prior years stats. Top 5 get 30 minutes, next 5 get 18 minutes.
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Awesome -- I'd like to hear how it works out.
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OK this is what I did (sorry I don't know how to format it better)
On the various Olympic teams I used the players stats for the previous NBA season. I did not include Laettner, Okafor, or Anthony Davis because they hadn't yet played in the NBA.
For the Franchise dream teams I used the players 5 best consecutive season with that franchise. So Wilt years in Philly weren't counted for instance, just his 5 best consecutive Lakers years. If there weren't 5 years then I went with as many as possible. With Brandon Roy I used his 3 peak season, and Walton his two peak seasons.
For 12 man rosters I went with 27 mpg for the starters and 15 mpg for bench players (1996, 2000, 2008, Randy's Lakers)
For 11 man rosters I went with 30 mpg for the starters and 15 mpg for bench players (1992, 2004, 2012)
For 10 man rosters I went with 30 mpg for the starters and 18 mpg for bench players (ziggy's Blazers)
For the players who played before 1979 there is no offensive or defensive rating, so I just averaged the players I could. There was WS data for every player.
1992 Dream Team Min/Game Off Def WS
David Robinson 30 118.0 94.0 0.260
Karl Malone 30 118.0 103.0 0.237
Scottie Pippen 30 114.0 102.0 0.192
Michael Jordan 30 121.0 102.0 0.274
Magic Johnson 30 124.0 105.0 0.251
Patrick Ewing 15 112.0 98.0 0.198
Charles Barkley 15 119.0 106.0 0.205
Larry Bird 15 112.0 104.0 0.159
Clyde Drexler 15 117.0 103.0 0.223
John Stockton 15 120.0 104.0 0.215
Chris Mullin 15 118.0 110.0 0.155
Christian Laettner 0 0.0 0.0 0.000
1992 Dream Team 240 118.0 102.0 0.224
1996 Dream Team Min/Game Off Def WS
Hakeem Olajuwon 27 108.0 101.0 0.166
Karl Malone 27 117.0 102.0 0.233
Charles Barkley 27 115.0 105.0 0.191
Scottie Pippen 27 116.0 101.0 0.209
John Stockton 27 125.0 108.0 0.214
David Robinson 15 120.0 96.0 0.290
Shaquille O'Neal 15 110.0 103.0 0.171
Grant Hill 15 110.0 102.0 0.172
Reggie Miller 15 121.0 110.0 0.188
Mitch Richmond 15 115.0 110.0 0.151
Gary Payton 15 112.0 102.0 0.174
Penny Hardaway 15 122.0 107.0 0.229
1996 Dream Team 240 116.0 104.0 0.200
2000 Dream Team Min/Game Off Def WS
Vince Carter 27 112.0 105.0 0.182
Kevin Garnett 27 107.0 99.0 0.172
Jason Kidd 27 106.0 98.0 0.156
Alonzo Mourning 27 112.0 96.0 0.226
Gary Payton 27 114.0 104.0 0.195
Shareef Abdur-Rahim 15 108.0 106.0 0.132
Ray Allen 15 115.0 110.0 0.157
Vin Baker 15 99.0 106.0 0.059
Tim Hardaway 15 106.0 105.0 0.123
Allan Houston 15 108.0 105.0 0.130
Antonio McDyess 15 103.0 104.0 0.110
Steve Smith 15 120.0 104.0 0.186
2000 Dream Team 240 109.0 103.0 0.161
2004 Dream Team Min/Game Off Def WS
Tim Duncan 30 107.0 89.0 0.249
Allen Iverson 30 96.0 102.0 0.066
Shawn Marion 30 107.0 102.0 0.135
Dwyane Wade 30 101.0 102.0 0.103
Amare Stoudemire 30 102.0 103.0 0.105
Carmelo Anthony 15 102.0 105.0 0.098
Carlos Boozer 15 113.0 101.0 0.174
LeBron James 15 99.0 104.0 0.078
Richard Jefferson 15 110.0 100.0 0.168
Stephon Marbury 15 109.0 107.0 0.144
Lamar Odom 15 102.0 98.0 0.134
Emeka Okafor 0 0.0 0.0 0.000
2004 Dream Team 240 104.0 101.0 0.132
2008 Dream Team Min/Game Off Def WS
Dwight Howard 27 113.0 99.0 0.200
Chris Bosh 27 117.0 105.0 0.200
LeBron James 27 116.0 104.0 0.242
Kobe Bryant 27 115.0 105.0 0.208
Chris Paul 27 125.0 103.0 0.284
Carlos Boozer 15 112.0 103.0 0.173
Tayshawn Prince 15 112.0 106.0 0.133
Carmelo Anthony 15 109.0 107.0 0.140
Deron Williams 15 118.0 110.0 0.177
DeWyane Wade 15 103.0 110.0 0.082
Jason Kidd 15 104.0 105.0 0.097
Michael Redd 15 112.0 115.0 0.104
2008 Dream Team 240 114.0 105.0 0.184
2012 Dream Team Min/Game Off Def WS
Tyson Chandler 30 130.0 99.0 0.220
LeBron James 30 118.0 97.0 0.298
Kevin Durant 30 114.0 101.0 0.230
Kobe Bryant 30 105.0 106.0 0.132
Chris Paul 30 126.0 104.0 0.278
Kevin Love 15 117.0 104.0 0.223
Andre Iguodala 15 108.0 98.0 0.158
Carmelo Anthony 15 106.0 102.0 0.160
James Harden 15 125.0 105.0 0.230
Deron Williams 15 106.0 111.0 0.099
Russell Westbrook 15 108.0 105.0 0.163
Anthony Davis 0 0.0 0.0 0.000
2012 Dream Team 240 116.0 102.0 0.209
Randy's Lakers Min/Game Off Def WS
Magic Johnson 27 122.4 106.2 0.240
Kobe Bryant 27 112.6 106.0 0.200
Elgin Baylor 27 0.190
Pau Gasol 27 121.8 103.6 0.270
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 27 116.0 99.4 0.250
Jerry West 15 0.240
Gail Goodrich 15 0.127
James Worthy 15 117.4 107.8 0.163
Vern Mikkelson 15 0.185
Shaquille O'Neal 15 115.4 99.8 0.259
Michael Cooper 15 114.6 107.0 0.120
Wilt Chamberlin 15 0.209
Randy's Lakers 240 117.0 104.0 0.211
Ziggy's Blazers Min/Game Off Def WS
Terry Porter 30 120.6 106.2 0.184
Clyde Drexler 30 117.2 104.2 0.209
Kiki Vandeweghe 30 122.0 112.0 0.173
Buck Williams 30 119.0 104.0 0.148
Arvydas Sabonis 30 112.0 96.0 0.210
Rod Strickland 18 112.0 105.0 0.153
Brandon Roy 18 120.0 109.0 0.148
LaMarcus Aldridge 18 114.0 107.0 0.158
Rasheed Wallace 18 109.0 100.0 0.163
Bill Walton 18 90.0 0.212
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Ziggy's Blazers 240 117.0 104.0 0.178
Here is the overall ranking by win share
Min/Game Off Def WS
1992 Dream Team 240 118.0 102.0 0.224
Randy's Lakers 240 117.0 104.0 0.211
2012 Dream Team 240 116.0 102.0 0.209
1996 Dream Team 240 116.0 104.0 0.200
2008 Dream Team 240 114.0 105.0 0.184
Ziggy's Blazers 240 117.0 104.0 0.178
2000 Dream Team 240 109.0 103.0 0.161
2004 Dream Team 240 104.0 101.0 0.132
I did head to head matchups based upon offensive and defensive rating. Basically I averaged the points scored per 100 possession's by one team and the points allowed per 100 possessions for the other team
1992 Dream Team versus Randy's Lakers
Average 1992 Offense and Laker Defense 111.0
Average 1992 Defense and Laker Offense 109.5
Winner 1992 Dream Team win 111-109.5
1992 Dream Team versus 2012 Dream Team
Average 1992 Offense and 2012 Defense 110.0
Average Dream Team Defense and Laker Offense 109.0
Winner 1992 Dream Team win 110-109
2012 Dream Team versus Randy's Lakers
Average 2012 Offense and Laker Defense 110.0
Average 2012 Defense and Laker Offense 109.5
Winner 2012 Dream Team win 110-109.5
1996 Dream Team versus Ziggy's Blazers
Average 1996 Offense and Blazer Defense 110.0
Average 1996 Defense and Blazer Offense 110.5
Winner Ziggy's Blazers win 110.5 -110
2008 Dream Team versus Ziggy's Blazers
Average 2008 Offense and Blazer Defense 109.0
Average 2008 Defense and Blazer Offense 111.0
Winner Ziggy's Blazers win 111-109
The worst Dream Team top 5 players based upon their previous season WS
#1 Vin Baker .059 that is equivalent to 24 win team
#2 Allen Iverson .066 that is equivalent to 27 win team
#3 LeBron James 2004 Team immediately after his rookie season .078 that is equivalent to 32 win team
#4 D Wade 2008 team .082 that is equivalent to 34 win team
#5 Jason Kidd 2008 team .097 that is equivalent to 40 win team
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Okay, that sure seemed like a lot of work Ziggy and it is cool. Personally, I don't think the Blazers beat the 1992 Dream Team -- MJ would have played heavy minutes and IMO, he wills them to win the game. Also, I don't think Mullins would have ever seen the light of day against a team like that (same with Laettner). Read an article the other day trying the make the point that the only reason Mullins was chosen was because he was white. I don't know whether to agree with that or not but he sure wasn't a good choice. A good shooter from outside but that's about it and there were better shooters in the league who could actually contribute in other areas too. Bottom line, IMO, is that MJ might play 48 minutes but he wouldn't let the 92 Dream Team lose. And the rebounding margin wouldn't even be close either.
I also don't know about the Lakers Dream Team vs. the current Dream Team. At some point, you could just put Wilt in and lob it to the top of the backboard for a dunk, lol. I think the lack of size of this current team would have negated their quickness. It's neat to see it all on paper but it does miss the intangibles. I don't think most teams have that big a line-up to challenge the current Dream Team. Spain does but that team is pretty decimated by injuries at this point. If they were a healthy team, I think that would be a pretty good game. I think Brazil showed that a team with some real bigs could hurt the USA team but I think in the end the intangibles of players like LeBron, Durant and Kobe -- they are just too much and would always make the play that won the game.
And we didn't even get into coaching. Coack K vs. PJ or Riley (I think I would take PJ over Riley).
I would have loved to see Sabonis play for the Blazers when he was healthy -- you just didn't get enough chance to see him play internationally when he was young.
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Okay, that sure seemed like a lot of work Ziggy and it is cool. Personally, I don't think the Blazers beat the 1992 Dream Team -- MJ would have played heavy minutes and IMO, he wills them to win the game. Also, I don't think Mullins would have ever seen the light of day against a team like that (same with Laettner). Read an article the other day trying the make the point that the only reason Mullins was chosen was because he was white. I don't know whether to agree with that or not but he sure wasn't a good choice. A good shooter from outside but that's about it and there were better shooters in the league who could actually contribute in other areas too. Bottom line, IMO, is that MJ might play 48 minutes but he wouldn't let the 92 Dream Team lose. And the rebounding margin wouldn't even be close either.
I also don't know about the Lakers Dream Team vs. the current Dream Team. At some point, you could just put Wilt in and lob it to the top of the backboard for a dunk, lol. I think the lack of size of this current team would have negated their quickness. It's neat to see it all on paper but it does miss the intangibles. I don't think most teams have that big a line-up to challenge the current Dream Team. Spain does but that team is pretty decimated by injuries at this point. If they were a healthy team, I think that would be a pretty good game. I think Brazil showed that a team with some real bigs could hurt the USA team but I think in the end the intangibles of players like LeBron, Durant and Kobe -- they are just too much and would always make the play that won the game.
And we didn't even get into coaching. Coack K vs. PJ or Riley (I think I would take PJ over Riley).
I would have loved to see Sabonis play for the Blazers when he was healthy -- you just didn't get enough chance to see him play internationally when he was young.
Certainly the Blazers Dream Team wouldn't have beaten either the 1992 Dream Teams in a one game do or die, but the 2012 that is much closer. In a 7 game series then I think the Blazers could have easily won a game against the 1992 team, probably two.
Sabonis and Walton at their NBA peak would have clearly negated any great Dream team advantage in the middle.
Porter, Buck Williams and Drexler were contemporaries of the 1992 Dream Team, and they were the core of the team that went to the finals twice and had the best regular season record in between. They played Malone, Stockton, Jordan, Barkley, Magic, Bird et al, regularly and did well against them.
Vandeweghe was top 10 in the NBA in win shares for 4 of his 5 peak seasons, his career offensive rating is 5th all-time (Chris Paul, Reggie Miller, Magic Johnson, and John Stockton are the top 4). During his 4 years with the Blazers he was the 5th best offensive player in the league.
Roy was an all-star for all three of his peak years, was 2nd and 3rd team all-nba, and would in all probability be playing on this Dream team if he hadn't broken down. LaMarcus was an all-star and was selected to play for this years Olympic team, but didn't because of injuries.
Rasheed's defense was excellent, he is 26th all-time in defensive win shares, and with his ability to shoot deep he would have given Malone, Barkley, and Bird serious fits.
Strickland would be the weakest member of the team, but his 4 Blazers season were his peak years. For his career he is 9th all-time in assists, 37th all-time in steals, 13th all-time in assist %, so he was a very good NBA player
If I were to add 2 more players to make the Blazers a 12 team roster I would probably add Steve Smith (2 seasons) and Maurice Lucas (3 seasons). Steve Smith when he was a Blazer was an excellent NBA player. Those teams were so deep because of that he gets forgotten.
Mo Lucas in his 3 full seasons in Portland was a tremendous player. He won a title, and the next season they probably would have won a second if not for injuries.
As far as the minutes played, obviously Jordan would have played as many minutes as necessary to win, but I think it is important to realize that in a 7 game series against any of these teams, it would have been very difficult for anyone to play much more than 36 minutes a night. Take Jordan vs your Lakers. He would have 27 minutes vs Kobe at his peak, 15 minutes vs West at his peak and 6 minutes vs Cooper at his peak. Playing defense at the high level necessary to contain Kobe and West, and then have to score against Cooper and Kobe would have forced him to the bench. This is especially true in a 7 game series. Why have Jordan's productivity drop over those last 12-18 minutes, when you can bring in Clyde Drexler and not have much of a drop in production?
As far as Mullin, I will defend his choice some. Mullin is a HoFer and he was all-NBA first team that year, was third in the league in points, and was clearly at his peak. For the role he played on that team, the only players who weren't selected that were eligible that perhaps should have been considered I would say are Jeff Hornacek, or Terry Porter. Mullin was a HoFer and neither of those two were.
I agree that the 2012 Dream team would struggle against the Laker bigs. Jabbar/Shaq/Wilt vs Chandler/Love is not close. I would love to watch Magic vs Chris Paul, that would have been tremendous. The strength of this years Dream Team is it's wings. LeBron, Durant, Harden, Kobe, Iguodala is really tremendous. In a 7 game series, it would go 7 games.