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PhillyArena Community => NBA Discussion => Topic started by: SPURSX3 on August 03, 2005, 09:29:50 AM
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biggest player moves on this trade look like walker to miami and jones to memphis....
the heat are putting a lot of hope on walker if they are willing to let jones go. They are both good shooters, but I dont know if I would have moved him for walker. I guess it must have worked for the heat as far as money goes. I still think this move may have hurt them a bit in the long run.
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biggest player moves on this trade look like walker to miami and jones to memphis....
Posey will be the best player Miami acquires. If Walker doesn't get in the way he could help them.
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I think adding Walker was a big mistake. We'll see.
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IMO, Posey is EXACTLY what Miami needs (if he can stay healthy). Miami needs a great 3 point shooter and I think that Posey's 3 point percentage will JUMP up with the defensive attention Shaq and Wade demand. This is a GREAT sign for Miami.
Williams as the Heat PG? The guy has great court vision but he can't shoot (of course, neither could Dooling) -- I really think they would be better off allowing Wade to run the PG position and start Posey at SG. I still think they are making a mistake letting EJ go -- this guy is a HUGE defensive stopper, works tirelessly and puts the team above himself.
Walker -- gosh, where to start with this guy!!! Walker really helped Boston in the least half of the season -- and Walker should realize pretty quickly that he is the 3rd (or possibly 4th) option on the Heat. If he can accept that role, he may help Miami -- if he can't, Shaq can always sqaush him like a bug.
The Heat had some GREAT chemistry last year -- I'm not sure why they are so willing to tinker with that chemistry. Riles just has a REALLY hard time being satisfied with his squad -- and this has led him to kill the franchise once before -- will it happen again? Only time will tell.
Why do the Jazz want Greg Ostertag back? Granted, they didn't give up much to get him but I don't understand that!!!
Why are the Hornets excited about the two players they received in the deal? Nothing about those players excites me!
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"The Heat had some GREAT chemistry last year -- I'm not sure why they are so willing to tinker with that chemistry."
Not quite sure myself. Why even move anyone? Then to top it off they make moves to get Walker and Williams?
One of the gripes last year was that Shaq was not being force fed the ball. What better way to deal with that then by letting Jason "Crap I better shoot theres 22 seconds on the shot clock" Williams and Ant "35 foot 3 pointer" Walker join the squad.
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the heat are putting a lot of hope on walker if they are willing to let jones go.
Did Shraq orchestrate the ousting of Jones in L.A.
Seems like Shaq did not like him then....wonder about now.
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I'm most curious as to why Miami was willing to give up Rasual Butler.
The acquisition of Posey is an AWESOME move for Miami, and Williams insures them against the loss of Damon Jones. Walker, if he's there for bench depth, isn't a bad pick-up...otherwise, he *IS* a bad pickup.
Utah loses big, Memphis wins big, Miami wins big, New Orleans helps themselves, and Boston better have some clue as to what they're doing other than just trying to corner the market on injury-prone centers. And if that's the case, Desagana Diop is still out there.
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No question the most important acquisition for the Heat is NOT Walker or Posey, but Williams.
They are going to hand the offense over to Jason to run. He can be great, or he can be a huge mistake, but at some point Williams is going to aggrevate either his own team or the team they are playing at the time.
It should be very interesting to see how guys like Walker and Shaq handle his entry passes. Shaq, for one, has never had a point guard quite like Williams before. The ball is going to appear near his hands at times like magic and while he has above average hands for a guy his size, Jason has not always had teammates who ever got used to that.
Most of Williams passing history, which started with the Kings, resulted in his teammates often not even looking for the ball to come whizzing their way, resulting in terrible looking turnovers. He has gotten away from that, it seems, during his time in Memphis, but with a new team, that may be a factor early on.
I always thought that Jason's bad rep was overstated. Doug Christie, who also would run the offense back then, looked much, much worse to me when he tried to be fancy in passing the ball. Most of Jason's passes were on the money, but so unexpected they would sail pass their intended recipient.
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Joe: did sloan and snyder not get along? was snyder a malcontent?
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No question the most important acquisition for the Heat is NOT Walker or Posey, but Williams.
They are going to hand the offense over to Jason to run. He can be great, or he can be a huge mistake, ...
I always thought that Jason's bad rep was overstated.
If the Heat get the "good" Jason Williams and the "good' Ant Walker, look out.
If so that will pop those of the "Jerry West Best GM" like -poof-.
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No question the most important acquisition for the Heat is NOT Walker or Posey, but Williams.
They are going to hand the offense over to Jason to run. He can be great, or he can be a huge mistake, ...
I always thought that Jason's bad rep was overstated.
If so that will pop those of the "Jerry West Best GM" like -poof-.
Uhhh no. You can wish with all your might that one move by Pat Riley is going to put him over Jerry West who had the Lakers in the playoffs for 2 decades straight and quite a number of championships.....Even you cant be drunk enough off hater juice to even believe what you posted.
JoMaL...what Jason did in the playoffs that year against the Lakers is what got him that bad wrap. He was pretty bad in that series if you ask me.
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Uhhh no. You can wish with all your might that one move by Pat Riley is going to put him over Jerry West who had the Lakers in the playoffs for 2 decades straight and quite a number of championships.....Even you cant be drunk enough off hater juice to even believe what you posted.
Truth is, Red had the Celts in 3 decades and more titles then you can ever wish for.
It all ended. Alzheimers. I hope it doesnt happen to Jerry but none of us are immune. Bring on the '06 playoffs and lets see what happens with JWill and AntWalker on the Heat. Ditto Eddie Jones and Memphis.
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JoMaL...what Jason did in the playoffs that year against the Lakers is what got him that bad wrap. He was pretty bad in that series if you ask me.
That also was his rookie year and he had an acute case of the jitters in that series. I personally think he was so criticized after that initial year, he never was quite the same, flamboyant player he was up to then and he quit doing much of what got him recognized constantly on ESPN, both good and bad.
After so many years, he still hasn't returned to that initial player he first was in his rookie year
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Joe: did sloan and snyder not get along? was snyder a malcontent?
That's the word I'm hearing. Apparently, a lot of it stems from his play in the summer league. I know he played below expectations, but some of the things I've heard make me wonder if it's not a case of justifying the decision after it happened...because some of the ways he supposedly acted are too ridiculous to believe.
I know that I liked what I saw in the guy last year.
I also know that we started falling apart when he was put on the roster.
I don't have a good feel for how much was Snyder's fault.
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JoMaL...what Jason did in the playoffs that year against the Lakers is what got him that bad wrap. He was pretty bad in that series if you ask me.
That also was his rookie year and he had an acute case of the jitters in that series. I personally think he was so criticized after that initial year, he never was quite the same, flamboyant player he was up to then and he quit doing much of what got him recognized constantly on ESPN, both good and bad.
After so many years, he still hasn't returned to that initial player he first was in his rookie year
I actually thought he did much better in Memphis. He still has somewhat of a trigger finger but not quite as bad as that serious.
Honestly, it wasnt worse than when Kobe thought he was Reggie Miller against the Jazz in the playoffs.
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Reality and what does Red have to do with the Pat Riley and Jerry West comparision? Stay on topic here.
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Reality and what does Red have to do with the Pat Riley and Jerry West comparision? Stay on topic here.
<.....Pat Riley is going to put him over Jerry West who had the Lakers in the playoffs for 2 decades straight and quite a number of championships>
Look familiar?
At some point Wests GMing abilities might wane. Just as Reds did in 1987. Could this current trade be the start of it? Bring on 2006 Playoffs and lets see.
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Reality and what does Red have to do with the Pat Riley and Jerry West comparision? Stay on topic here.
<.....Pat Riley is going to put him over Jerry West who had the Lakers in the playoffs for 2 decades straight and quite a number of championships>
Look familiar?
At some point Wests GMing abilities might wane. Just as Reds did in 1987. Could this current trade be the start of it? Bring on 2006 Playoffs and lets see.
Are you kidding?
West landed Eddie Jones for Posey and Williams.
DUH! That's a no brainer for the Grizz.
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Are you kidding?
West landed Eddie Jones for Posey and Williams.
DUH! That's a no brainer for the Grizz.
ya that would be good. While he may (jury way out) have helped the Heat, they are in a different conference so...
How does the money match up? Posey/Williams had to = Jones, no?
It's stho confuthsing.
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Reality and what does Red have to do with the Pat Riley and Jerry West comparision? Stay on topic here.
<.....Pat Riley is going to put him over Jerry West who had the Lakers in the playoffs for 2 decades straight and quite a number of championships>
Look familiar?
At some point Wests GMing abilities might wane. Just as Reds did in 1987. Could this current trade be the start of it? Bring on 2006 Playoffs and lets see.
As usual I am having a hard time following you and your logic....
So because Red's skills faded in 87 due to a disease........
Pat Riley is going to be the better GM of him and West because of a deal to land Jason Williams and Ant Walker? How can you even compare the two? Jerry West navigated the Lakers into being a quality team for two decades. Riley makes a move to get Ant Walker and Jason Williams and now hes comparable?
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[How does the money match up? Posey/Williams had to = Jones, no?
Very close.
Eddie Jones is due $14,560,000 next season and $15,680,000 in 2006/07
Williams is getting $7,562,700 next season, then $8,250,000, and then $8,937,500.
Posey is getting $5,900,400 next season and $6,392,100 in 2006/07
So the Posey/Williams salaries come to $13,463,100 next year.
Walker is getting $6,900,000 next season and Haslem has not signed a new deal yet. The Heat currently have nine players under contract and a total salary base of just under $50 million towards the cap.
Looks to me that Riley is packing the team for the here and now while he still can count on Shaq being in reasonable health. This team does not look like it has lasting power beyond the next season or two, but then Riley is not making that a secret.
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Pat Riley is going to be the better GM of him and West because of a deal to land Jason Williams and Ant Walker? How can you even compare the two? Jerry West navigated the Lakers into being a quality team for two decades. Riley makes a move to get Ant Walker and Jason Williams and now hes comparable?
My point is at some time Wests GMing may decline.
No more, no less. Any additions, subtractions are yours.
It might start with this trade. It might not at all. Bring on 06 Playoffs.
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Pat Riley is going to be the better GM of him and West because of a deal to land Jason Williams and Ant Walker? How can you even compare the two? Jerry West navigated the Lakers into being a quality team for two decades. Riley makes a move to get Ant Walker and Jason Williams and now hes comparable?
My point is at some time Wests GMing may decline.
No more, no less. Any additions, subtractions are yours.
It might start with this trade. It might not at all. Bring on 06 Playoffs.
They have yet to decline because he made moves to take a toilet dweller and move them to the middle of the pack in the WC. I doubt they will anytime soon either. Red's only did because of his health.
Why do you think this trade is so good? Honestly, nothing was wrong with there team at all. Injuries hurt this team not personel. I much rather see Wade take those 10-15 shots Walker is going to take LOL
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Why do you think this trade is so good? Honestly, nothing was wrong with there team at all. Injuries hurt this team not personel. I much rather see Wade take those 10-15 shots Walker is going to take LOL
Are you asking me?
If the Heat get the "good" Jason Williams and the "good' Ant Walker, look out.
Same as 10 hours ago. Won't be known until 2006.
And of course what is Shraqs health status. If good, comes in as slim as last year and no lingering thigh bruise.....look out for the Heat.
But look out for Indy if they stay healthy.
I think its gonna be another season where health dictates a lot.
Timmy Dunker had us gasping at least twice in the playoffs.
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Why do you think this trade is so good? Honestly, nothing was wrong with there team at all. Injuries hurt this team not personel. I much rather see Wade take those 10-15 shots Walker is going to take LOL
Are you asking me?
If the Heat get the "good" Jason Williams and the "good' Ant Walker, look out.
Same as 10 hours ago. Won't be known until 2006.
And of course what is Shraqs health status. If good, comes in as slim as last year and no lingering thigh bruise.....look out for the Heat.
But look out for Indy if they stay healthy.
I think its gonna be another season where health dictates a lot.
Timmy Dunker had us gasping at least twice in the playoffs.
What does the Heat getting the "good" Walker have to do with West?
What gives you ANY indication the West has decline in any way shape of form?
Screwy logic.
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Why do you think this trade is so good? Honestly, nothing was wrong with there team at all. Injuries hurt this team not personel. I much rather see Wade take those 10-15 shots Walker is going to take LOL
Are you asking me?
If the Heat get the "good" Jason Williams and the "good' Ant Walker, look out.
Same as 10 hours ago. Won't be known until 2006.
And of course what is Shraqs health status. If good, comes in as slim as last year and no lingering thigh bruise.....look out for the Heat.
But look out for Indy if they stay healthy.
I think its gonna be another season where health dictates a lot.
Timmy Dunker had us gasping at least twice in the playoffs.
Yes I am asking you. What makes you think this trade is so good. Im not taking a shot at you, I am curious. Something other than 'IF they get the good Walker' cuz quite frankly the only time Walker was good as opposed to above average was when he was allowed to do anything he pleased inside the Boston offense. He wont have that same freedom and theres 3 other players on this team who should be shooting before him.
IF they get a good AWalker sounds a little weak to be calling this a great trade. To me it doesnt even look good on paper. Walker is not the kind of PF who is going to take the load off Shaq in the post. If anything hes going to have to play more help D now.
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Hold on. *I* think Miami got a good deal in this, too.
They got Jason Williams, which will either give them the back-up point guard that they need to replace Keyon Dooling, or insurance against the loss of Damon Jones to free agency. Jason Williams *IS* a starting-quality point guard.
They got Antoine Walker, who, in my opinion, is best used as bench depth. Walker also can help stretch the defense, giving O'Neal more room to operate in the paint. And if you play Walker at the 3, you get more rebounding defensively than you did when undersized-for-a-3 Eddie Jones was playing at the 3.
You get James Posey, a role player extraordinaire. He gives you good defense at the 3, good shooting, and doesn't demand the ball. He should thrive in a catch-and-shoot situation. I would want him starting at the 3.
To do that, you give up Qyntel Woods, Rasual Butler - who, inexplicably, has struggled in a situation which looks to be tailor-made for him, and Eddie Jones. The loss of Jones is the only real wildcard, because he wasn't out there just for defense and 3-point shooting, but for scoring, explosiveness, and ball-movement. Scoring, explosiveness, and ball-movement are the three things that Posey doesn't bring at the 3.
My evaluation is that, if they use the players they got the way I described, Miami just added to its depth. That's not a bad deal.
What I'm afraid of is Miami putting Walker in the starting line-up, and nuking their chemistry from orbit. But something tells me that's what they're going to do. It won't be as bad as I think it will be, but I still think it won't be as effective as my proposed idea.
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If the Heat get the "good" Jason Williams and the "good' Ant Walker, look out.
Same as 10 hours ago. Won't be known until 2006.
Yes I am asking you. What makes you think this trade is so good.
Ant Walker has had him moments, not just on Boston but also after he came over to Dallas. Moments of team ball. His one season on Dallas he was high assist man about 10 times, including back to back Triple Doubles (no kidding). His 3 pt attempts have gone way down the past 3 years, save that stretch of time he did in Atlanta. Still way down from his 8-9 per game on early Boston. So perhaps he is coachable?
Do as Joe said, stretch the defense and pass. With Shaq this could definitely have its place. If he can spot up and nail occasional 3s, fake 3 put ball on floor for midrange jumper, not be a ballhog, rebound (whether he starts or not crashing the boards when not spotting up, as he does average 9 boards career), I'm saying he could be a good piece of the puzzle for the Heat. The good Walker.
Ditto JWill. We've all seen him suck, we've also all seen highlight reel great passes. If he can concentrate on being an assist machine, feeding it non stop to Shraq, again, this could be very good for the Heat.
Now they have Raja Bell. Superb D, but also he has had his moments on O. His O has increased the last few years. If the trend continues with him as a starter...I like Miamis options. They could actually be a semi running team if you know who comes in SlimFast.
Conclusion I'm saying if you get both the good Ant and good JWill, along with Slim Shady with no thigh bruise, Heat will definitely challenge for ECFs.
WOW if the Heat take the East, it would seem West helped them to it as not just JWill but also Walker does not come in the mega trade without Wests input. Helping an opponent to a Conf Final? Whatever the Heat do Memphis could improve. I am not putting out any West incense candles -yet.
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That's the word I'm hearing. Apparently, a lot of it stems from his play in the summer league. I know he played below expectations, but some of the things I've heard make me wonder if it's not a case of justifying the decision after it happened...because some of the ways he supposedly acted are too ridiculous to believe.
I know that I liked what I saw in the guy last year.
I also know that we started falling apart when he was put on the roster.
I don't have a good feel for how much was Snyder's fault.
Snyder's play in summer league was completely forgettable. He was outplayed by just about every other 2 on the team, especially by the high-schooler taken in the second round: CJ Miles.
In an interview yesterday, Sloan said Snyder wasn't happy here. He couldn't and wouldn't adjust to the style of play. Of course, that's coming from Sloan. Sloan also said he doesn't mind giving players a chance to freelance, but if you don't have the skills to do it in this league, he's gonna get pissed if you try it. Same thing happened with Arroyo. I think if you're playing for Jerry Sloan and you're not a top-tier talent like Stockton or Malone, you stay within the offense, or you go bye-bye. Basically, if Sloan doesn't like you, you'd better pack your bags.
As far as picking up Osternuts again, Sloan said he undervalued Ostertag when he was here, especially the fact that Ostertag is a veteran of the glory years and is a strong presence in the locker room.
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Still think JWill is going to be the key acquisition for the Heat. He was not brought in to be the backup point, as was suggested. Jones, if kept, would be the backup, though I do not think the Heat are that interested in keeping him.
After watching Williams play, first in Sacramento and then in Memphis, I always thought his biggest problem was he never had guys who could react as fast as he could, so his passes often went unheeded.
Bigger issue for him. He is not a quality defender at all, though his quick hands can come up with steals. He also has a marked tendency to stand around the perimeter after passing the ball and if he was not involved in the offensive play, thereby not making himself readily available for a return pass from Shaq, for instance, if O'Neal is not free to shoot.
That spectator aspect of his game bugged me much more then the errant passes.
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" WOW if the Heat take the East, it would seem West helped them to it as not just JWill but also Walker does not come in the mega trade without Wests input. Helping an opponent to a Conf Final? Whatever the Heat do Memphis could improve. I am not putting out any West incense candles -yet. "
Depending on what goes on. You cant just assume if the Heat take the East its because of those two. Also, if his team makes it to the 2nd round (West) then would he not be doing what is benefitting his team? Why would he get a blemish on his record for that.
No need to put out any candles -yet because he has yet to give anyone the reason to do so.
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Following up on westkoast's idea:
There's an old saying: the team that gets the best player gets the best in the trade.
That said, who won this trade? Who's the best player?
In my opinion, the best player is Eddie Jones. In that regard, Memphis won in this trade.
Don't write West's epitaph just yet. This guy is too shrewd to discount.