PhillyArena Forums
PhillyArena Community => NBA Discussion => Topic started by: Guest_Randy on July 24, 2005, 10:17:29 PM
-
Stevie Franchise for Lamar Odom!!!
Okay, as a Laker fan I would just like to say :eek3 :puke: :
Okay, we have heard a TON of false rumors (SAR to SA, etc.) but this one just tanks!!! What are the Lakers trying to do -- assembly the biggest team of misfits to play in the league?
I don't have a problem with the Bynum pick -- IMO, there wasn't anyone available who would really help the Lakers so go ahead and roll the dice and gamble a little. If it pays off, that's great -- if not, we saved ourselves from another Medvendenko and Brian Cook. But the trade that is REALLY steaming me and has me questioning the Lakers head office (like I had a lot of confidence in Kupchak anyway) is trading Butler and Atkins for Kwame Brown. Brown!?! And you trade away Butler (who was playing MUCH better than Lamar Odom at the end of last season) and our ONLY PG? Okay, I know Chucky isn't a great PG -- he's a decent back-up but who the heck is going to start PG for the Lakers now? Now the Lakers are pursuing Tyronne Lue!?! Okay, Chucky may not be great but he's a LOT better than Tyronne Lue!!!
I would have MUCH rather seen the Lakers keep Butler and trade Lamar Odom -- for a quality PG (that excludes Franchise, IMO) or a big man. But if you ARE going to trade Butler for Brown, get rid of a player we DON'T need -- like Medvendenko, George, Jones, Cook -- don't trade your ONLY PG!
Sorry, just a little Lakers venting :cry: -- hmm, still don't feel better! lol
-
I actually feel a bit sorry for the famed Laker franchise these days, even though the Kings are also going through a tough personnel shift themselves.
The main problem the Lakers face is really simple. There is no way you are going to attract a quality star NBA player back to Los Angeles to play along side Kobe Bryant. To return to the lofty ranks of NBA championships, you still need that 'other' complementary superstar to split the attention from other teams, and I have to say it looks like no one else who envisions themselves as an upper tier NBA player wants to be shoved aside by Bryant like he tried to do with Shaq. While Odom and Butler are great role players, they lack that higher standard where they occasionally just demand the ball, and you need a another guy who sees himself in that light.
We all do.
Let's face it, Kobe did not want to share the limelight with O'Neal, argueably the best player in the NBA in your championship years, so what chance does anyone else have playing with him? That has to have a carryover affect in the minds of anyone else who thinks they could enjoy Laker sunshine down in SoCal.
I think I mentioned last year that the Lakers are never going to succeed again until you dump Bryant, and I still hold by that. At least my Kings saw the light and traded Webber before he dragged any hopes for Sacramento down into the depths of lottery hell once again.
-
I can't disagree MORE with your assessment, JoMal.
There is no way you are going to attract a quality star NBA player back to Los Angeles to play along side Kobe Bryant. To return to the lofty ranks of NBA championships, you still need that 'other' complementary superstar to split the attention from other teams, and I have to say it looks like no one else who envisions themselves as an upper tier NBA player wants to be shoved aside by Bryant like he tried to do with Shaq.
Umm, just HOW do you expect the Lakers to get another complementary superstar to LA? There are three ways of pulling this off: 1) trade for one (umm, let's see, who do the Lakers have to trade for another superstar -- umm, nobody!); 2) sign them through FA (umm, how do you do this when you don't have any cap space?) and 3) draft them (and you aren't going to do that in today's draft when your highest pick in years is at #14).
Did you notice Turiaf's statement the other day? He thanked the Laker organization, Buss and Kobe specifically for their help and support through this time! Why thank Kobe if he is such a worthless teammate?
Let's face it, Kobe did not want to share the limelight with O'Neal, argueably the best player in the NBA in your championship years, so what chance does anyone else have playing with him? That has to have a carryover affect in the minds of anyone else who thinks they could enjoy Laker sunshine down in SoCal.
You seem to forget what the real deal was -- this wasn't a Kobe decision -- it was a FINANCIAL one! Shaq wanted a 3 year extension for the MAX (which means over $30 million dollars PER YEAR!!!). Umm, how many other players are the Lakers going to be able to afford if Kobe is making the Max and Shaq is making over $30? It's easy math, JoMal -- that's the cap almost just between those two players. The Lakers still have a couple of other players under contract so they are over the cap and have zero room to sign anyone else. Kobe and Shaq AREN'T going to win a championship on their own -- just isn't going to happen. And let's consider what Shaq's incredibly high salary has netted the Lakers over the past few years -- 1) a player who comes into each season more out of shape than the last; 2) a player who isn't interested in working his hardest (either in the off-season or in the regular season); 3) a player who waits until the season begins to have surgery; and 4) a player who is as concerned with his off the court activities than he is his on the court activities.
IMO, it was this simple with the Lakers -- Shaq wasn't going to help bring the Lakers any more titles -- he was never going to be motivated enough to get in the shape that would have meant and the Lakers role players (that helped bring them their titles like Grant, Shaq, Fisher, Fox, etc.) had retired and the current Lakers role players weren't good enough to help the Lakers to another title. Since the Lakers have been at the top so long they can't help themselves in the draft and they can't help themselves in FA due to cap restraints. It spells doom for the Lakers current chances and the only way to hurry up rebuilding is trading Shaq before he is completely done! This is one decision by the Lakers recently that I have actually LIKED (although I wish they had gotten more for Shaq).
At least my Kings saw the light and traded Webber before he dragged any hopes for Sacramento down into the depths of lottery hell once again.
Hmm, that's exactly what the Lakers were trying to do by trading Shaq -- funny how you think it's great management by the Kings but horrible management by the Lakers!
-
JoMaL dislikes Kobe so he assumes everyone who touches a basketball would never want to play with him.
Isnt the Chris Webber and Shaq situation similar? Aside from the fact Shaq is 40x the player Webber ever was...it was a similar situation as far as playing level dropping lower and lower.
-
JoMal,
I would also add that the Lakers and SacTown chose two different ways to put a team together:
The Lakers chose two superstars to build a team around.
The Kings chose stars to build around.
The Lakers way netted 3 NBA championships -- the Kings way netted what?
When the Kings traded away one of their stars -- it didn't make them a lottery team because they had several stars -- when the Lakers traded away one of their superstars it made them a lottery team.
Chris Webber was never a superstar -- he was a very talented player who had a great deal more stars on his team but in the end, he never showed he could do the things that make a player a superstar.
-
And yet the Kings got at least equal value for Webber in their trade that the Lakers got for O'Neal, considering that Webber was viewed just about univerally as being untradable.
I know you guys are all loyal to the Lakers and think in the long run the team will be better off by moving O'Neal when they did, but the fact is, if the Lakers were serious about maintaining their level of play, they would have kept the dominant center instead of the talented but hardly exceptional shooting guard, and I mean hardly exceptional because you could get the same production from that position whether it was manned by Ray Allen, Tracy McGrady, LeBron James, Allen Iverson.....you get the picture.
With Shaq, even at his price level, you don't think Kobe could have at least brought in a Michael Redd to complement him? Who have the Lakers brought in who can accommodate Kobe in any way near the same way? Isn't that the whole point of building an NBA team? Find components who want to work together and give them some freedom to do so? The Lakers just don't appear to have all that much freedom in that regard with Kobe. Why is that?
And isn't it fairly clear that what Shaq was doing with his salary demands was essentially putting the Laker management on the line to chose, and Shaq did not care if he stayed or went at that point? He twisted Kupchek up and Buss said trade him.
Did you notice Turiaf's statement the other day? He thanked the Laker organization, Buss and Kobe specifically for their help and support through this time! Why thank Kobe if he is such a worthless teammate?
What does Kobe have to lose being nice to a player who was absolutely no threat to him on the basketball court and would not ever be a superstar in the League? It cost him nothing and made a kid feel good. Hardly the issue I was making. Even Butler and Odom are not who I was referring to. But put him out there with a McGrady or an Iverson and I think you know what I mean.
-
And yet the Kings got at least equal value for Webber in their trade that the Lakers got for O'Neal, considering that Webber was viewed just about univerally as being untradable.
lol -- you call that equal value? Your opinion of Webber must be a WHOLE lot lower than mine is!!!
if the Lakers were serious about maintaining their level of play, they would have kept the dominant center instead of the talented but hardly exceptional shooting guard,
Umm, was Shaq dominant against the Pistons the year before? Nope, why? Because he was sooo out-of-shape, Ben Wallace ran his fat butt all over the court. You must have missed those playoffs. Shaq proved, at least in the shape he was in, that he was no longer dominant.
the talented but hardly exceptional shooting guard
I guess you missed the series in which Kobe kicked SacTown butt, huh? So do all those players you mentioned kick SacTown's butt?
-
"What does Kobe have to lose being nice to a player who was absolutely no threat to him on the basketball court and would not ever be a superstar in the League? It cost him nothing and made a kid feel good. Hardly the issue I was making. Even Butler and Odom are not who I was referring to. But put him out there with a McGrady or an Iverson and I think you know what I mean"
Great examples of players who are great with other superstars themselves :D Not to mention you would never have two shooting guards side by side like that.
-
When has Allen ever had a superstar?
Closest thing is a 1 legged chris webber, whom most have already agreed wasn't a superstar when he had 2 legs.
-
lol -- you call that equal value? Your opinion of Webber must be a WHOLE lot lower than mine is!!!
Apparently.
At the cost of his contract, at least the Kings now have movable parts to swing other deals. Another three years of Webber's contract would have left the Kings in dire straights indeed.
...the talented but hardly exceptional shooting guard.
I guess you missed the series in which Kobe kicked SacTown butt, huh? So do all those players you mentioned kick SacTown's butt?
As a matter of fact, they do. No defense, remember???
Umm, was Shaq dominant against the Pistons the year before? Nope, why? Because he was sooo out-of-shape, Ben Wallace ran his fat butt all over the court. You must have missed those playoffs. Shaq proved, at least in the shape he was in, that he was no longer dominant.
I think the Lakers had other problems with the Pistons that "weighed" down LA more then just what foot injury Shaq was suffering from at that time.
-
Great examples of players who are great with other superstars themselves :D Not to mention you would never have two shooting guards side by side like that.
Yeah, well there are a sub-group of these players out there that look absolutely terrific on paper, and often their teams look great as well, but does it not also seem that a common thread weeds through the careers of these players also?
For years, Kobe's , ummm, issues were mostly camouflaged within the Laker triangle, and the team concept forced on him by Jackson and to a degree, Shaq.
Are we going to witness these types of transactions every summer as long as Bryant is a Laker from now on? Moving players in and out of the Staple Center until they find bodies that click with Kobe? Good players (Odom, Butler), bad players with that awful label of having "potential" (Brown), raw players who come with just a hope and a prayer (Bynum).
I have to guess the big "secret" of all these moves is that the Lakers need to free cap space for future FA signings, like in 2007. Clearly, they want to keep Bryant around, so maybe it does not matter what warm bodies slip in and out of LA for now. In a few years, a good crop of free agents are available, like Yao and Stoudemire.
Unless their current teams do something stupid like sign them to long term deals this summer.
You know, it just is not that easy to sign a quality free agent front line player, like that dominant power forward or center. You usually have to trade for one of those guys, have you noticed? Or even bad ones who burned previous bridges, like Kwame.
Not like a point guard or shooting guard. They seem to change with the winds of fortune more readily.
Kobe? Shaq? Who could be easier to replace through free agency?
-
When has Allen ever had a superstar?
Closest thing is a 1 legged chris webber, whom most have already agreed wasn't a superstar when he had 2 legs.
But Adelman sure made him "look" like one in his system for several years. Triple doubles are soooooo overrated, sometimes.
-
"For years, Kobe's , ummm, issues were mostly camouflaged within the Laker triangle, and the team concept forced on him by Jackson and to a degree, Shaq. "
JoMaL Kobe assumption #324...:rolleyes: Yes the team concept was forced on him as Kobe as said numerous times he could win the championship 1 on 5 right?
"Are we going to witness these types of transactions every summer as long as Bryant is a Laker from now on? Moving players in and out of the Staple Center until they find bodies that click with Kobe? Good players (Odom, Butler), bad players with that awful label of having "potential" (Brown), raw players who come with just a hope and a prayer (Bynum)."
Again, your dislike for Kobe forces you to make off the wall comments. Why is it only Kobe you take sarcastic stabs at because the team has to move players around till they find the right fit. I guess Jordan should get the same sarcastic shot from you as they moved players around from the day he was drafted till the year they won it all to find the pieces to fit. Chris Webber? Eh... they did the same thing. Shaq? Same thing. They got Kobe to compliment Shaq. The list goes on and on yet you feel the need to take a stab at having to shift players around to find ones that fit.
"Kobe? Shaq? Who could be easier to replace through free agency?"
Once again you fail to realize something either because your hate is clouding your judgement or you feel like being difficult. Not sure which. So replace Kobe for another good 2-guard......who will end up taking over the team in 2-3 years? What shooting guard is the same caliber of Kobe that would be able to take over the team after Shaq left? T-Mac?? Steve Francis?? Vince Carter? Who else JoMaL im curious lol. Id say Dwayne Wade, umm..... uhhh.......Who else could they have got that would compliment Shaq and take them deep in the playoffs beating such teams as the Suns, Sonics, and the Spurs??
-
"Are we going to witness these types of transactions every summer as long as Bryant is a Laker from now on? Moving players in and out of the Staple Center until they find bodies that click with Kobe? Good players (Odom, Butler), bad players with that awful label of having "potential" (Brown), raw players who come with just a hope and a prayer (Bynum)."
Actually, from all reports that I have read -- Kobe and Butler were hitting it off and they really liked each other --- there were issues with Kobe and Atkins (aren't there always issues when you lose? -- as a SacTown fan you should understand that!)
-
JoMaL Kobe assumption #324...:rolleyes: Yes the team concept was forced on him as Kobe as said numerous times he could win the championship 1 on 5 right?
"Are we going to witness these types of transactions every summer as long as Bryant is a Laker from now on? Moving players in and out of the Staple Center until they find bodies that click with Kobe? Good players (Odom, Butler), bad players with that awful label of having "potential" (Brown), raw players who come with just a hope and a prayer (Bynum)."
So, are you saying that Kobe was really happy all those years playing next to Shaq and sharing the glory? Why is it the perception from the rest of the entire NBA world saw it differently?
Again, your dislike for Kobe forces you to make off the wall comments. Why is it only Kobe you take sarcastic stabs at because the team has to move players around till they find the right fit. I guess Jordan should get the same sarcastic shot from you as they moved players around from the day he was drafted till the year they won it all to find the pieces to fit. Chris Webber? Eh... they did the same thing. Shaq? Same thing. They got Kobe to compliment Shaq. The list goes on and on yet you feel the need to take a stab at having to shift players around to find ones that fit.
Sorry to burst your bubble on this one, but Kobe never has been and never is going to be the next Michael Jordan. LeBron James undoubtedly will fill that void.
By the way, I am glad you finally see my point regarding Shaq and Kobe -"They got Kobe to compliment Shaq." Exactly - It could have been Ray Allen or lets go to the ultimate sidekick - Scotty Pippen. But the one thing you can NEVER say (with a straight face at least) is that Shaq was just Kobe's 'compliment'.
But I do not deny disliking Bryant. What you fail to assimilate from all of this is that I would admire the Lakers so much more as a franchise if they had cut their ties to this prima donna instead of Shaq, who was clearly a pain in many areas but still demanded the serious attention of other teams regardless. Bryant simply drags the Laker franchise around like a wet rag doll.
Once again you fail to realize something either because your hate is clouding your judgement or you feel like being difficult. Not sure which.
I am being difficult. Comes with the hate.
So replace Kobe for another good 2-guard......who will end up taking over the team in 2-3 years? What shooting guard is the same caliber of Kobe that would be able to take over the team after Shaq left? T-Mac?? Steve Francis?? Vince Carter? Who else JoMaL im curious lol. Id say Dwayne Wade, umm..... uhhh.......Who else could they have got that would compliment Shaq and take them deep in the playoffs beating such teams as the Suns, Sonics, and the Spurs??
I don't know, westkoast, maybe you just LIKE your team having a constant fractured squad, always taking sides against one another, always voicing "annonymous" complaints about their franchise player, where reporting that he gets along with one of his teammates actually is NEWSWORTHY!!!!!
In the rest of the known world, this looks, smells, and sounds like a dysfunctional team. At the very heart of that dysfunction, one name keeps coming up .... just one. It is NOT Caron Butler, or Brian Grant, or Lamar Odom. It, for some odd reason STOPPED being Shaquille O'Neal once he joined the Miami Heat. But the dysfunction on the Lakers still is being talked about. Oh....and now it is with the NEW players now. You know, the ones brought in to 'compliment' the "name"?
So, westkoast, please explain to all of us, and maybe to yourself as well, why this one name is all that is ever mentioned when locker room problems are ever discussed about the Lakers?
Looky here, "The Name" makes nicey nice with the poor kid drafted in the second round who has the bad heart. He MUST be a great guy to do that, right? Please???? It's in the paper, so that must make his image squeaky clean again so he can go back to selling those McDonald hamburgers.
Looky here, "The Name" has made kissy noises with one of his fellow teammates!!!! He IS a team player after all!!!! It's right there in print, so let's all jump back on his band wagon and play patty cake with him just like the old days.
Please. Who between you and I is really the jaded one about Kobe Bryant??
-
"So, are you saying that Kobe was really happy all those years playing next to Shaq and sharing the glory? Why is it the perception from the rest of the entire NBA world saw it differently?"
Was Kobe happy winning championships? I believe he was. Was he more and more vocal when the team started to not do as well? Yes he was. Funny how this is only Kobe, yet again. Shaq had nothing to do with the bad blood between the two whatsoever? It was all Kobe who had the problem and the whole entire NBA world saw it that way? Right.....
"Sorry to burst your bubble on this one, but Kobe never has been and never is going to be the next Michael Jordan. LeBron James undoubtedly will fill that void."
I didnt say Kobe was going to be the next Michael Jordan. So you arent bursting any bubble. Ive only said this on this board oh say 1,000,000 times?? What I was saying is that even the greatest guard of all time had players shift in and out of his team until the pieces fit. Just like EVERY other super star who has won a championship in recent history. Teams have to make moves to find the right pieces....yet this is something you want to take a jab at Kobe for? Makes no sense.
"By the way, I am glad you finally see my point regarding Shaq and Kobe -"They got Kobe to compliment Shaq." Exactly - It could have been Ray Allen or lets go to the ultimate sidekick - Scotty Pippen. But the one thing you can NEVER say (with a straight face at least) is that Shaq was just Kobe's 'compliment'. "
Finally? LOL. Everyone knows this and I never once said Shaq was there to compliment Kobe. What I did say was that it was a two way street as Kobe got better. I think the whole NBA world saw that one JoMaL. And no, if they got Pippen instead of Kobe or Ray Allen they would not have had the same success. Neither of those players are as versatile as Kobe is on both ends of the court. Update the bait in your tackle box.
"But I do not deny disliking Bryant. What you fail to assimilate from all of this is that I would admire the Lakers so much more as a franchise if they had cut their ties to this prima donna instead of Shaq, who was clearly a pain in many areas but still demanded the serious attention of other teams regardless. Bryant simply drags the Laker franchise around like a wet rag doll. "
And what you fail to realize is that Shaq was not going to get better as time goes on. He is on his way out. Kobe, who could not be replaced by many guards right now except maybe Wade, is in the middle of his career. The decision was made based partially on that. Shaq needs to be on the floor playing to demand serious attention.......in 2-3 years he wont be demanding any attention unless you are driving without your seatbelt in NJ. Kobe on the other hand will still command a double team. Im am very sure the Lakers are disapointed you cannot admire them for making the right move. No comment from JoMaL on moving the sac-town pre-madonna for the past 4 years???? Couldnt imagine why.
"In the rest of the known world, this looks, smells, and sounds like a dysfunctional team. At the very heart of that dysfunction, one name keeps coming up .... just one. It is NOT Caron Butler, or Brian Grant, or Lamar Odom. It, for some odd reason STOPPED being Shaquille O'Neal once he joined the Miami Heat. But the dysfunction on the Lakers still is being talked about. Oh....and now it is with the NEW players now. You know, the ones brought in to 'compliment' the "name"?
So, westkoast, please explain to all of us, and maybe to yourself as well, why this one name is all that is ever mentioned when locker room problems are ever discussed about the Lakers?"
LA media is severly harsh on their local teams when they are not winning. They are harsh on the dodgers. They are VERY harsh on the Lakers. The Lakers squad last year, put together with random players who did not compliment each other well, did not do well. There was also a coaching change at the begging of the season and mid-season they completely changed the offense back to the triangle offense. The people in charge of installing this new offense? Not Tex Winters or Phil Jackson. Nope! Kurt Rambis and Brian Shaw. They were teaching such gifted players as Brian Grant, Chris Mihm, and Lamar Odom how to run a difficult offense when they were already struggling. Of course in JoMaL-Land that is a non-factor. Its simple really....When you are the biggest name on your team and the best player you will take the good and the bad. When your team is stinking, like the Lakers were, you take the bad as the star. When your team is doing well, like the Lakers were 3 years ago, you get extra special attention even if the whole team is playing well. Perfect example is Shaq and Kobe. Kobe's team is not playing well so he constantly is getting hammered left and right. Shaq, who's whole team is playing very well, is getting praised as the sole reason why the team is playing so well. Even when he was sitting out in the playoffs!!! Guys like Wade and Jones were made out there to be duds without Shaq. Wade's best trait is his ability to keep his mouth shut according to the media :lol:
Now JoMaL, everyone knows what happens in sports when teams lose. Now you know how the LA media is on local teams. So put two and two together and you will have a much better idea of the stress put on this team. Now in every sport there is usually a star player who gets all the praise for the wins and all the tomatoes when things go bad. So....being that Kobe is the star player on the team I couldnt imagine why they would single him out. I remember other players who were very competitive and people thought they were a-holes in practice also. Guys who seemed like they were too serious and never joking when it came to anything basketball related. Ever heard of those kinds of guys?
Odom, Butler, Grant, Mihm, and Atkins were not brought in to compliment Kobe Bryant. The first 3 were brought in because that is all they could get. The second two almost the same thing as the fans and team was unhappy with Payton and he clearly wanted to get away from that. Who in their right mind thought these guys were brought in to compliment Kobe Bryant? I hope not you.
JoMaL it is no secret your hate for Kobe Bryant has you making off the wall comments. I am a Kobe fan but you dont see me going to the extreme like you are without taking other things into mind. This site is searchable ya know, you can see the positive and negative comments Ive made about Kobe. Funny thing is that anytime your name pops up mentioning Kobe its always bad. So you tell me, who is more bias towards Kobe? Me or you? The site is searchable so you dont have to do much work.
Players who have had to have players switched in and out......
Allen Iverson
Michael Jordan
Charles Barkley
Tracy McGrady
Yao Ming
Shaq O Neil
Karl Malone
Pat Ewing
Ben Wallace and Co.
David Robinson
Tim Duncan
-
Was Kobe happy winning championships? I believe he was. Was he more and more vocal when the team started to not do as well? Yes he was. Funny how this is only Kobe, yet again. Shaq had nothing to do with the bad blood between the two whatsoever? It was all Kobe who had the problem and the whole entire NBA world saw it that way? Right.....
You BELIEVE he was?????
Guess what westkoast? Lots of players start to complain about things when their teams start to lose. It is how that griping is perceived by their teammates that cause the rifts.
I didnt say Kobe was going to be the next Michael Jordan. So you arent bursting any bubble. Ive only said this on this board oh say 1,000,000 times?? What I was saying is that even the greatest guard of all time had players shift in and out of his team until the pieces fit. Just like EVERY other super star who has won a championship in recent history. Teams have to make moves to find the right pieces....yet this is something you want to take a jab at Kobe for? Makes no sense.
You are still comparing Michael Jordan and whoever they put out on the court with him to Kobe Bryant and whoever they are putting out on the court with him. While Jordan clearly was the glue that eventually brought the championships to Chicago, Kobe appears to be the solvent that separates cohesiveness. And as you noted, he is not getting any younger and his body has been beat up for a decade now.
But the point is, Jordan was a harsh, a very harsh, teammate, but he demanded respect and no one questioned whether Jordan was ever dividing the team. In Chicago - I believe that city to be a very harsh critic of its teams as well - he got some nasty press prior to his team winning some championships.
I also heard that players still wanted to be one of those guys being shifted in and out of Chicago so as to play with him. Are players doing the same with the Lakers these days to play with Bryant? You have to ask yourself, is having Bryant your keynote player really an attraction to quality free agents any longer? And with your head coach having embarassed him in print as BEING a prima donna?
It is one thing to get the blue chippers in town, an altogether different thing to make them happy they chose to come to Los Angeles after several months playing next to Bryant.
Finally? LOL. Everyone knows this and I never once said Shaq was there to compliment Kobe. What I did say was that it was a two way street as Kobe got better. I think the whole NBA world saw that one JoMaL. And no, if they got Pippen instead of Kobe or Ray Allen they would not have had the same success. Neither of those players are as versatile as Kobe is on both ends of the court. Update the bait in your tackle box.
That's okay, my bait clearly caught the right fish.
And what you fail to realize is that Shaq was not going to get better as time goes on. He is on his way out. Kobe, who could not be replaced by many guards right now except maybe Wade, is in the middle of his career. The decision was made based partially on that. Shaq needs to be on the floor playing to demand serious attention.......in 2-3 years he wont be demanding any attention unless you are driving without your seatbelt in NJ. Kobe on the other hand will still command a double team. Im am very sure the Lakers are disapointed you cannot admire them for making the right move.
Ah, yes. The Laker plan is that Bryant is impermeable to injury and will last forever, or until the right mix is attained. Going into his tenth year of his career, you have to ask yourself when, not if, those aches and pains he has been feeling of late turns into a more debilitating injury. It can happen suddenly, as Webber found out. Even Jordan's knee gave out.
Until then, those double teams Kobe demands are going to be just easier and easier for him to shuck off, right?
Those don't take a toll on the body, right?
When are the Lakers planning on getting that special complimentary player to help him out?
No comment from JoMaL on moving the sac-town pre-madonna for the past 4 years???? Couldnt imagine why.
Sheesh, westkoast, do you actually read, with comprehension what I am talking about? Or your own quotes?
The Kings MOVED their prima donna franchise player. Exactly!!!!!!! :rolleyes:
JoMaL it is no secret your hate for Kobe Bryant has you making off the wall comments. I am a Kobe fan but you dont see me going to the extreme like you are without taking other things into mind. This site is searchable ya know, you can see the positive and negative comments Ive made about Kobe. Funny thing is that anytime your name pops up mentioning Kobe its always bad. So you tell me, who is more bias towards Kobe? Me or you? The site is searchable so you dont have to do much work.
Westkoast, my "extremes", as you call them, are hardy that. I said the Lakers should have traded Kobe and not Shaq. I said Kobe has not done the franchise any favors by keeping a negative light on things at a time when maybe it would behoove him to avoid that, just so the team might be able to rebuild without having to first placate potential players with assurances that Kobe isn't really a cancer, that he is misunderstood and to play him up to be a stand up guy and teammate when all of that should never be necessary with your star player.
Maybe I have not seen it yet, or the Lakers are just keeping the information secret until the new CBA is signed, but why have we heard nothing of potential free agents or sign and trades going on that will actually make a difference for the team other then bringing in Kwame Brown? Is that going to be it?
Players who have had to have players switched in and out......
Allen Iverson - Ah, how nice it would be if it were Kobe trying to placate his hometown fans instead of Iverson.
Michael Jordan - Always thought he made players around him tense, but better, instead of upset and peeved.
Charles Barkley- Barkley would have thought just about the same as Shaq does regarding playing along side Bryant.
Tracy McGrady - Equal of Bryant, and in some ways better, especially by being less of a pain to play along side, apparently. Lakers could do much better attracting him to LA as their franchise player and building around him instead of Bryant.
Yao Ming - He is the complementary player, because he will never be the dominant guy that Shaq was in his prime. He just does not have the heart. He could definitely fit in along side Bryant in LA, though, and do some damage there.
Shaq O Neil - You had him, you won three championships, and you "had" to trade him, and now you have to build a new team around Kobe Bryant. Meanwhile, Shaq goes to Miami and turns them into a pretty good team that beats up everyone except the Pistons in the east, after the Heat suffered some awful seasons. I suppose it is possible that O'Neal has something left in his tank after all.
Karl Malone - In his prime, add him to any team and they could contend, but that's apparently it.
Pat Ewing - Personally, never liked his game much. Hate to be harsh, but I always thought he never had the brains to figure out how he should best help his team. I know for sure he never should have been the focus of the offense. As a playmaker, he just was not up to it.
Ben Wallace and Co. - All complementary players who work well in that system and probably would not flounder elsewhere. Wallace could help the Lakers as Bryant's sidekick and probably would not kill him right away. But I would expect that eventually, Big Ben would squish him, just to make a point.
David Robinson - Have to recall what he was like before his back gave out. Before, HE was the guy you build around; after, just a component to Duncan.
Tim Duncan - :D :D :D
-
Ah, yes. The Laker plan is that Bryant is iimpermeable to injury and will last forever, or until the right mix is attained. Going into his tenth year of his career, you have to ask yourself when, not if, those aches and pains he has been feeling of late turns into a more debilitating injury. It can happen suddenly, as Webber found out. Even Jordan's knee gave out.
Applause.
1-0 Shaq after one season. Except for those who insist Miamis coming within 60 seconds of the Finals with a generously estimated 70-80% Shaq constitutes a "suck" year and a superior one by sub .500 Kobe. How thankful LakerNation was that Shaq did not make it to the Finals.
To insist the that in looking back from the year 2009 the season/playoff record will be Kobe advantage 3-1 is indeed counting chickens before they have hatched.
That Shaq will decline in 1-2 years while Kobadiah remains healthy is certainly what the Lakers are hoping and seems a very realistic possiblity. If Shaqs thigh is indeed shot -next year is not looking good for the Heat. But here and now today, it's merely an egg.
If Shaq gets healthy again, keeps up his 24 Hour Fitness promotions with a straight face and gets the Heat to the finals while elite free agents continue to pass on L.A., call Kobe Humpty Dumpty. Unless at that time he does the right thing, takes a salary cut in L.A. and/or offers to help out as a role player on a contender. :D
GNob might be needing to reduce minutes by then.
-
Applause.
1-0 Shaq after one season. Except for those who insist Miamis coming within 60 seconds of the Finals with a generously estimated 70-80% Shaq constitutes a "suck" year and a superior one by sub .500 Kobe. How thankful LakerNation was that Shaq did not make it to the Finals.
WRONG!!
Score after one season 0 - 0.
There is no prize for second place, there are no moral victories. In 10 years no one will remember how many games the 2004-2005 Laker/Miami teams won, the only thing that anyone will remember is that the San Antonio Spurs won the NBA Championship that year.
Shaq guaranteed the fans of Miami a championship before the season started and he didn't deliver. If anything, the score is 0 - 1 in favor of Kobe. He never promised anything and the only thing he did this season was be a consummate professional. He said all the right things, supported his teammates through tough times, never responded to the immature baiting of Shaq and Phil. The only "player outburst" was instigated by Chucky Atkins, when after an especially tough loss a reporter asked him a tough question and he responded with "why don't you ask Kobe, it's HIS team". Even when the media tried to bait Kobe with that comment, he responded with "Chucky is my boy, I've got his back, he's frustrated, I'm frustrated too, we aired it out and we're all good". In other words, he said the right thing, rose above it and acted as the leader that he is. Kobe has obviously made some mistakes in the past (on and off the court) and is responsible for his share of the rift with Shaq. But he has been the consummate professional on the court... he shows up early for every practice and is the last to leave. He shows up early before every game to work on his jumper and new post moves. He plays sick, he plays hurt. He adds new dimensions to his game that he works on diligently every off-season. WTF else can you ask for from the guy?!?!? Shaq has a god-dang hang nail and the whole world will know about it. He builds in an excuse before the game is even played so he has one when he gives another one of his half-arsed efforts ... and let me tell you I've witnessed many from him first hand over the past 7 years. 7 rebounds in an NBA finals game last year against the Pistons .... 7 GD rebounds!! Are you kidding me Shaq?!?! With your size and agility you should be getting 7 rebounds/quarter against those scrappy, undersized, over-achievers. Problem is he's got no heart! Timmy Dunker played on two badly sprained ankles throughout this year's playoffs and never said one word about it. That is a man! Shaq would be telling every media outlet that would listen, "Ummm, I'm only 62.456789% right now, but you know, my guys will rally".
So you have an aging 32 year old with no heart or work ethic and a 26 year old top 7 player in the league, with nothing but heart and an exceptional work ethic. The 32 year old demands a two year extension for 60mil and threatens the owner. The 26 year old wants a max contract. Let's see .... hmmmm ... this is a real tough decision .... Jiminy E'fing X-mas ... it's a no brainer and anyone who says it isn't is completely tainted by their hatred for Kobe.
So Reality, here's my prediction of the score over the next three years and I'll bet you a Double-Double Animal-style that I'm right.
Ready?
Here it is ....
0 - 0.
Neither one of these prima-dona donkey's will see another championship in the next three years. Shaq with Miami had their chance this year and they couldn't pull it off. Next year Shaq is a year older, a year fatter, one year less motivated (if this is even possible), and Miami's chances are slim to none. They'll lose a couple of roll players, Keyon Dooling, Damon Jones. Eddie Jones will disappear in the playoffs like he has every year of his career with the exception of last seasons anomaly (sorry Eddie, I love you, but its true).
Here's the difference, in 3 years, Kobe will only be 29 and with any luck, the Lakers will have re-built the pieces to a winning team. Not saying it's a guarantee, but based on their track record dating back to Minneapolis days, I'll take my chances :moon:
-
Applause.
1-0 Shaq after one season. Except for those who insist Miamis coming within 60 seconds of the Finals with a generously estimated 70-80% Shaq constitutes a "suck" year and a superior one by sub .500 Kobe. How thankful LakerNation was that Shaq did not make it to the Finals.
WRONG!!
Score after one season 0 - 0.
There is no prize for second place, there are no moral victories. In 10 years no one will remember how many games the 2004-2005 Laker/Miami teams won, the only thing that anyone will remember is that the San Antonio Spurs won the NBA Championship that year.
Shaq guaranteed the fans of Miami a championship before the season started and he didn't deliver. If anything, the score is 0 - 1 in favor of Kobe. He never promised anything and the only thing he did this season was be a consummate professional. He said all the right things, supported his teammates through tough times, never responded to the immature baiting of Shaq and Phil. The only "player outburst" was instigated by Chucky Atkins, when after an especially tough loss a reporter asked him a tough question and he responded with "why don't you ask Kobe, it's HIS team". Even when the media tried to bait Kobe with that comment, he responded with "Chucky is my boy, I've got his back, he's frustrated, I'm frustrated too, we aired it out and we're all good". In other words, he said the right thing, rose above it and acted as the leader that he is. Kobe has obviously made some mistakes in the past (on and off the court) and is responsible for his share of the rift with Shaq. But he has been the consummate professional on the court... he shows up early for every practice and is the last to leave. He shows up early before every game to work on his jumper and new post moves. He plays sick, he plays hurt. He adds new dimensions to his game that he works on diligently every off-season. WTF else can you ask for from the guy?!?!? Shaq has a god-dang hang nail and the whole world will know about it. He builds in an excuse before the game is even played so he has one when he gives another one of his half-arsed efforts ... and let me tell you I've witnessed many from him first hand over the past 7 years. 7 rebounds in an NBA finals game last year against the Pistons .... 7 GD rebounds!! Are you kidding me Shaq?!?! With your size and agility you should be getting 7 rebounds/quarter against those scrappy, undersized, over-achievers. Problem is he's got no heart! Timmy Dunker played on two badly sprained ankles throughout this year's playoffs and never said one word about it. That is a man! Shaq would be telling every media outlet that would listen, "Ummm, I'm only 62.456789% right now, but you know, my guys will rally".
So you have an aging 32 year old with no heart or work ethic and a 26 year old top 7 player in the league, with nothing but heart and an exceptional work ethic. The 32 year old demands a two year extension for 60mil and threatens the owner. The 26 year old wants a max contract. Let's see .... hmmmm ... this is a real tough decision .... Jiminy E'fing X-mas ... it's a no brainer and anyone who says it isn't is completely tainted by their hatred for Kobe.
So Reality, here's my prediction of the score over the next three years and I'll bet you a Double-Double Animal-style that I'm right.
Ready?
Here it is ....
0 - 0.
Neither one of these prima-dona donkey's will see another championship in the next three years. Shaq with Miami had their chance this year and they couldn't pull it off. Next year Shaq is a year older, a year fatter, one year less motivated (if this is even possible), and Miami's chances are slim to none. They'll lose a couple of roll players, Keyon Dooling, Damon Jones. Eddie Jones will disappear in the playoffs like he has every year of his career with the exception of last seasons anomaly (sorry Eddie, I love you, but its true).
Here's the difference, in 3 years, Kobe will only be 29 and with any luck, the Lakers will have re-built the pieces to a winning team. Not saying it's a guarantee, but based on their track record dating back to Minneapolis days, I'll take my chances :moon:
No reason for me to post...that about says it for me also.
-
Allen Iverson - Ah, how nice it would be if it were Kobe trying to placate his hometown fans instead of Iverson.-------Have the Sixers not moved parts in and out to find a good match for Iverson? Lets take shots at him. Im sure Rick or DB could list the moves the Sixers have made for the last 5 years.
Michael Jordan - Always thought he made players around him tense, but better, instead of upset and peeved. I guess the Bulls didnt make moves to find players who would fit around Michael Jordan? That was magic out in Chi-town. No thought put behind draft picks and trades whatsoever.
Charles Barkley- Barkley would have thought just about the same as Shaq does regarding playing along side Bryant. What does that have to do with anything? The Suns made moves to find players to fit around Barkley did they not?? I remember them trading for shooters.....
Tracy McGrady - Equal of Bryant, and in some ways better, especially by being less of a pain to play along side, apparently. Lakers could do much better attracting him to LA as their franchise player and building around him instead of Bryant. Yes..because we would like to give up a player who wants to always play for one that only plays on one end of the floor? Yet another player that the team he was on moved players so they could grab guys like Grant Hill.
Yao Ming - He is the complementary player, because he will never be the dominant guy that Shaq was in his prime. He just does not have the heart. He could definitely fit in along side Bryant in LA, though, and do some damage there.
These are not suggestions on who can play with Kobe. Yao is a player that Houston has moved players in and out to build around him. I mean Sheesh, do we have to watch another few years of Houston bringing in other guys like Mcgrady to compliment him?
Shaq O Neil - You had him, you won three championships, and you "had" to trade him, and now you have to build a new team around Kobe Bryant. Meanwhile, Shaq goes to Miami and turns them into a pretty good team that beats up everyone except the Pistons in the east, after the Heat suffered some awful seasons. I suppose it is possible that O'Neal has something left in his tank after all.
Last year the Miami Heat, without Shaq, got to the second round. With just Dwayne Wade, Odom, and Brian Grant. This year they got to the 3rd round but Shaq was hurt most of the 2nd round. So he didnt exactly take rubble and build King Arthur's castle. Great example of what im talking about....the best player on the team gets all the credit for a good season. While the best player on the team that does poorly is blamed for everything. Should Kobe shoulder some blame? Yes he should, as the leader of the team. Is Kobe the one and only reason for every single thing wrong? I guess if you live in Sac-town.
The Lakers moved players around to compliment Shaq. They moved Van Exel. They moved Eddie Jones because they felt they needed a shooter to compliment Shaq. They traded Divac in the middle part of his career for a kid out of high school. I mean Sheesh, I had to watch years and years of them moving players in and out to fit in with Shaq. Good players, bad players, players who should never got playing time (Samaki).
Karl Malone - In his prime, add him to any team and they could contend, but that's apparently it. The Jazz made moves to grab players to compliment Karl Malone did they not? I believe they got a big loaf to help him bang inside and shooters to space the floor.
Pat Ewing - Personally, never liked his game much. Hate to be harsh, but I always thought he never had the brains to figure out how he should best help his team. I know for sure he never should have been the focus of the offense. As a playmaker, he just was not up to it. Knicks moved a gazillion players to try to get to the championship when Ewing was the corner piece. I think we need a Woody Allen sheesh here.
Ben Wallace and Co. - All complementary players who work well in that system and probably would not flounder elsewhere. Wallace could help the Lakers as Bryant's sidekick and probably would not kill him right away. But I would expect that eventually, Big Ben would squish him, just to make a point. Stackhouse for Rip. Sheed deal with Portland. Any of those moves ring a bell? Are those players not moving in and out until they got it right?
David Robinson - Have to recall what he was like before his back gave out. Before, HE was the guy you build around; after, just a component to Duncan.
Anyone remember when the Spurs got Rodman because they needed someone to help Dave out on the boards? Or how about that time they drafted that unknown kid Tim Duncan to be the second twin tower??
Tim Duncan - Horry, Brent Barry, Ginobolli....these are guys Pop went after because he felt they would be good pieces to build around Duncan. They have had a number of changes on this roster have they not?
Ok so ALL of these teams have moved players in and out for years until they found the right pieces to build around their star player. Some faster than others. Why are the Lakers any different JoMaL? Didn't the Kings move players in and out to try to compliment Chris Webber? The Lakers wouldnt want to have to put you thru the pain of watching them move players around till they got it right. Good thing you watch teams that never have done that!
-
If you can't see that moving Shaq was the right move for L.A. you don't understand the game and purpose of the NBA. Granted the Lakers SHOULD have gotten more for Shaq, but still Shaq needed to go. The Lakers were not going to win it all with Shaq of the post 2002 season. It actually took the public humiliation of trading Shaq in favor of Kobe to get Shaq motivated enough to do SOME work in the off season.
Kobe is no perfect teammate, he's got all the ego and selfishness of a superstar, BUT Kobe has never called a team mate a flamming faggot ala Jordan. Kobe has never stated he got rid of any player ala Shaq. Shaq has stated on record he got rid of NVE, Eddie and Cambell because it was HIS team.
I'm a huge Shaq fan but I'm a bigger Laker fan and I know the Lakers made the right move. I would have loved for Shaq to retire a Laker but not at the cost of crippling the team with his salary demands.
-
If you can't see that moving Shaq was the right move for L.A. you don't understand the game and purpose of the NBA. Granted the Lakers SHOULD have gotten more for Shaq, but still Shaq needed to go. The Lakers were not going to win it all with Shaq of the post 2002 season. It actually took the public humiliation of trading Shaq in favor of Kobe to get Shaq motivated enough to do SOME work in the off season.
I'm a huge Shaq fan but I'm a bigger Laker fan and I know the Lakers made the right move. I would have loved for Shaq to retire a Laker but not at the cost of crippling the team with his salary demands.
You can't put Shaq on the list because his presence on a team instantly makes that team a title contendor. You cannot pay a player like that enough. Same for TD, thsoe are the only two players in the NBA who CANNOT be overpaid.
Let's try thinking before we post mmmkay...this board is better than that.
-
And that's where I disagree with you, WayOutWest.
Shaq on a half-way decent team makes them at least a deep playoff team, if not a title threat. Those "crippling salary demands" aren't crippling when he delivers.
The real question about Shaq is motivation. If you could have had this past year's Shaq in Los Angeles, you should want him - despite his salary demands.
Why a coach hasn't figured out how to motivate Shaq is beyond me. All you had to do was strip him of his team captain title. Declare that there's only going to be one team captain, and Kobe's superior work ethic earned him the title. "Outwork him, and I'll be glad to pull the captain's title from him, and give it back. I don't care how bad it ticks him off. It should be yours, but I'm not giving it to you until you earn it. Until then, you take your lead from him."
I can't believe that no coach out there is willing to PLAY the ego game with these pampered babies.
-
Wrong, Reality!
Let's face a couple of facts:
1) Shaq got into shape last year -- something had hadn't done in his previous 3 seasons (each year it got worse -- much worse).
2) The Lakers SHOULD (and probably would) have kept Shaq IF he had stayed in shape and showed that he was committed to doing everything he could to help the Lakers win a title. That wasn't the case and he was in the worse shape of his career in a year when he could renegotiate his contract (hmm, if that's his work ethic that year -- I wonder what it would be when he got his fat contract extension).
3) The Heat obviously isn't nearly as bad as you think since they managed to win games in the playoffs WITHOUT Shaq. In fact, the playoffs proved that the Heat could win without Shaq but they couldn't win without Wade!
-
Wrong, Reality!
Let's face a couple of facts:
1) Shaq got into shape last year -- something had hadn't done in his previous 3 seasons (each year it got worse -- much worse).
2) The Lakers SHOULD (and probably would) have kept Shaq IF he had stayed in shape and showed that he was committed to doing everything he could to help the Lakers win a title. That wasn't the case and he was in the worse shape of his career in a year when he could renegotiate his contract (hmm, if that's his work ethic that year -- I wonder what it would be when he got his fat contract extension).
3) The Heat obviously isn't nearly as bad as you think since they managed to win games in the playoffs WITHOUT Shaq. In fact, the playoffs proved that the Heat could win without Shaq but they couldn't win without Wade!
For the love of......
See the thread "Players who block title chances, All overpaid/underchieve list"
http://www.phillyarena.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=2252 (http://www.phillyarena.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=2252)
-
Shaq guaranteed the fans of Miami a championship before the season started and he didn't deliver. If anything, the score is 0 - 1 in favor of Kobe. He never promised anything and the only thing he did this season was be a consummate professional. He said all the right things, supported his teammates through tough times, never responded to the immature baiting of Shaq and Phil. The only "player outburst" was instigated by Chucky Atkins, when after an especially tough loss a reporter asked him a tough question and he responded with "why don't you ask Kobe, it's HIS team". Even when the media tried to bait Kobe with that comment, he responded with "Chucky is my boy, I've got his back, he's frustrated, I'm frustrated too, we aired it out and we're all good". In other words, he said the right thing, rose above it and acted as the leader that he is.
See, this is where I get really ticked when fans blindly support players because of HOW THEY ARE QUOTED IN THE MEDIA!!!
Few players are stupid enough to say inappropriate things to the media. That WOULD be idiotic, and on those occasions when a player does say something derogatory about a teammate or their team in print, it tends to come back in a negative way.
But one of the bizarre exceptions tends to be when someone says something bad about Bryant. We mostly get shrugs and polite commentary from Kobe about it. But the originator of the comment? Seldom do they really answer for it.
Does this not strike you as particularly odd?? It makes me wonder what is being said when no media is around to hear.
Shaq has stated on record he got rid of NVE, Eddie and Cambell because it was HIS team.
And he personnally recruited Karl Malone and Gary Payton to play for the Lakers. Honestly, WOW, WAS IT NOT Shaq's team?? And, ummm, did you want the Lakers to actually keep those other players?
And westkoast, I know what your point was regarding those other players you listed and how their teams tried to bring in players to match up with these guys to improve their success. Yeah, that is called NBA franchise building and it goes on, ooh, I don't know, 365 days out of the year. So what?
Can you answer this question now? Are the Lakers having the same degree of success bringing in quality players to support Kobe as you might expect a franchise with the history of Los Angeles might expect if they had Shaq instead? With his salary, cap space would be a problem. But then, Payton and Malone came to the Lakers cheap. Hmmm, I don't know why they would do that just to play with Kobe. Must have been something else.
Shaq was unmotivated and fat and out of shape his last several years in LA, then got in shape and played reasonably well until he got hurt in Miami. Either he has no further NBA aspirations, or he needed an excuse to get out of town and play anywhere else. Now, why would he want to make the team get rid of him like that?
What could it be?
-
Wow, the first emotional thread across that omni-present divide, Laker fans and everyone else. I'll put in my two cents.
For the last couple of months, every Laker fan has pounded into my head repeatedly. Shaq doesn't work, Shaq is a baby, Shaq doesn't care, Shaq is whiny, Shaq is fat, Shaq is over-paid, Shaq is old, Shaq this, Shaq bombed a homeless shelter. I'm trying to see your side of things but I just can't get over this tiny little detail:
2000 - Finals Appearance - Title (Shaq)
2001 - Finals Appearance - Title (Shaq)
2002 - Finals Appearance - Title (Shaq)
2003 - WC Semis Appearance (Shaq)
2004 - Finals Appearance (Shaq)
2005 - Lottery team (no Shaq)
To start counting future blessings, is (as Reality said) a little premature.
I can't believe I just agreed with you Reality, j/k. :up:
-
What could it be?
"Can you answer this question now? Are the Lakers having the same degree of success bringing in quality players to support Kobe as you might expect a franchise with the history of Los Angeles might expect if they had Shaq instead? With his salary, cap space would be a problem. But then, Payton and Malone came to the Lakers cheap. Hmmm, I don't know why they would do that just to play with Kobe. Must have been something else. "
JoMaL you sure your not an LA resident? How can we judge the success of the rebuilding of the LA team in one season? Last summer they did not make moves to compliment Kobe. Odom, Butler, and Grant were not brought in because they were pieces that would fit well with Kobe. They were brought in because thats all the could get for Shaq. Mihm and Atkins were sent over in a deal to get rid of Payton (Fox was going to retire anyways so it didnt matter). So tell me how are you going to gauge how well the Lakers have done if its only been one season. You must be an LA resident with the thought that rebuilding takes one season.
JoMaL, those players came cheap because there was an already established team who had been to the finals just 2 years before. Surely it wasnt just to play with Shaq as Shaq is not the sole reason why the Lakers had success in recent history. Your comments boggle my mind sometimes JoMaL.
"Shaq was unmotivated and fat and out of shape his last several years in LA, then got in shape and played reasonably well until he got hurt in Miami. Either he has no further NBA aspirations, or he needed an excuse to get out of town and play anywhere else. Now, why would he want to make the team get rid of him like that?"
He didnt need an excuse to leave. He wanted to stay. He didnt want the team to get rid of him in the first place. It wasnt until he felt disrespected by the organization for even thinking about keeping Kobe over him is when he made a fuss. If the Lakers agreed to pay him 30 million over the next 3 years he would have stayed. JoMaL I didnt know Shaq confides in you so much.......to where you know exactly what he was thinking. I guess everything that was shown to the NBA world and to the LA media was lies. Shaq really wanted to leave the organization the whole entire time :rolleyes:
Shaq played well and was in shape because his ego was bruised and he had something to prove.
-
According to Skandery role players such as Derek Fisher, Ho Grant, Robert Horry, Rick Fox,
2000 - Finals Appearance - Title (Shaq) - Def this was Shaq as he was at his best and playing VERY well.
2001 - Finals Appearance - Title (Shaq) - Also had nothing to do with how good that team was...Shaq was the only reason they went 15-1. What about Rick Fox's defense on Peja????
2002 - Finals Appearance - Title (Shaq) - Im glad gets all the credit for this year :rolleyes: Horry didnt hit a shot to get them to game 7 right?
2003 - WC Semis Appearance (Shaq) - This was the year Kobe went on a tear while Shaq was able to take his sweet time to get into shape. Shaq did not dominate in the middle and the Lakers lost 4-2 to the Spurs.
2004 - Finals Appearance (Shaq) - Derek Fisher to beat the Spurs?? Kobe Bryant's 45 point game 5 to swing the Wolves series in their favor??
2005 - Lottery team (no Shaq) - No Phil Jackson, no real head coach, mid-season offensive change, no parts that fit together, injuries to role players, only 4 players from the previous year returning (2 being hurt
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One thing that I would like to point out is that the Miami Heat were a playoff team before Shaq got there. They got to the second round and gave a much more stacked Indy team a nice challenge. That was when they had a rookie leading the pack and his side men were Lamar Odom and Brian Grant.
Shaq did not get them past the 2nd round as he played very little minutes. Wade and Co got them past the 2nd round. So this whole idea that Shaq took rubble and built King Arthur's castle is a fairy tale.
-
The bottom line is IT WAS STUPID TO GET RID OF SHAQ.
He made the Lakers championships possible. He is one of the few players in the league that attract other players because they see him as having a get into the finals free card.
If Peyton and Makone came to play with Kobe why did they leave when Shaq did? They knew the party was over.
$30 million is worth it for Shaq. I believe he would have stayed motivated if the Lakers had treated him better. Their favoritism for Kobe, put Shaq into a funk. The Lakers should have taken better care of their real franshise player. That was the problem with the Lakers, they couldn't keep a good thing going.
With a healthy proud Shaq, the team could be on it's way back to a title. WIth Kobe they are looking at another lottery pick.
In terms of the success for their relative franchises, the score is Shaq 1 (Conference Finals) Kobe & Lakers 0 (lottery pick)
-
JoMaL I didnt know Shaq confides in you so much.......to where you know exactly what he was thinking.
He didnt need an excuse to leave. He wanted to stay. He didnt want the team to get rid of him in the first place. It wasnt until he felt disrespected by the organization for even thinking about keeping Kobe over him is when he made a fuss.
Shaq played well and was in shape because his ego was bruised and he had something to prove.
Westkoast, would you please stop doing this? The LA air must be causing your "Delete Hypocracy" key to stick on your keyboard.
Last summer they did not make moves to compliment Kobe. Odom, Butler, and Grant were not brought in because they were pieces that would fit well with Kobe. They were brought in because thats all they could get for Shaq. Mihm and Atkins were sent over in a deal to get rid of Payton
"That's all they could get for Shaq". Which, apparently, you are all right with????? :bs:
The Lakers brought in players that they knew would not really compliment Kobe????? But since that was "all they could get for Shaq", and they knew before hand that these were pieces that would not fit well with Kobe, but the Lakers made this trade to placate Bryant and really to just rid themselves of the utterly useless blob of a center that "may" not lead them to any more championships because they lost to Detroit??
Am I getting all of this right?
Man, I clearly am NOT Los Angeles Laker fan material!!!!!
Because if this is what you think are the right moves for your team, you guys clearly HAVE been sniffing the smogpipe a wee bit too long.
How can we judge the success of the rebuilding of the LA team in one season?
Usually, it starts early, but drafting Bynum must make it clear even to you that the rebuilding of the Lakers is being viewed by your team's management as going to take several years to do.
May I ask why on earth that should be the case???
Your comments boggle my mind sometimes JoMaL.
If you really want me to boggle your mind, you should meet me in person.
Surely it wasnt just to play with Shaq as Shaq is not the sole reason why the Lakers had success in recent history.
:rolleyes: (I have acces to the smilies too)
If the Lakers agreed to pay him 30 million over the next 3 years he would have stayed. I guess everything that was shown to the NBA world and to the LA media was lies. Shaq really wanted to leave the organization the whole entire time.
Why believe only some of the stuff the media prints, but disbelieve the rest? I am sure if the Lakers had declared Shaq their franchise player instead of Kobe, they could have kept him. But Shaq did not act like he wanted to stay, at least to me he didn't.
-
So you have an aging 32 year old with no heart or work ethic and a 26 year old top 7 player in the league, with nothing but heart and an exceptional work ethic. The 32 year old demands a two year extension for 60mil and threatens the owner. The 26 year old wants a max contract. Let's see .... hmmmm ... this is a real tough decision .... So Reality, here's my prediction ....0 - 0.
Neither one of these prima-dona donkey's will see another championship in the next three years. Shaq with Miami had their chance this year and they couldn't pull it off. Next year Shaq is a year older, a year fatter, one year less motivated (if this is even possible), and Miami's chances are slim to none. They'll lose a couple of roll players, Keyon Dooling, Damon Jones. Eddie Jones will disappear in the playoffs like he has every year of his career with the exception of last seasons anomaly (sorry Eddie, I love you, but its true).
Here's the difference, in 3 years, Kobe will only be 29 and with any luck,....
msc,
I wish you would weigh in more often.
Completely agree that these two are/were both prima donnas.
With all the cashe they make off the court, combined with all the cash they made on the court prior to 2004-5, why in the name of all that is good could they not have come together and said "Lets take 10 million apice, leave the Lakers money to get us some other good players and keep the title contention alive."
I know I know the board has spoken ad nauseum, multimillionaires taking less money for a better chance at a title is unthinkable. Could you imagine the Lakers tho msc.
Well they didn't.
Certainly the Laker hope is that Kobe stays healthy and FAs/other players are added thus 2007-8-9 title contention can be obtained.
Here is a point tho, and rickertreat you and i concur on this: It's possible Shaq could have been just as motivated and gotten in just as good a shape had the Lakers jettisoned Kobe and made Shaq their chosen one.
Could Shaq have been just as fueled by his fat ego then needing to prove the Lakers with himself and minus Kobe were better. Thus last years Lakers doing just as well as last years Shaqs Heat? Kobe to the Clips for Maggett and ?? Many other sign n trade possibilities.
msc, Laker and other posters?
-
If I were a player, there's only one thing that would keep me from going to LA . . .
It's not that Kobe is THE MAN and runs the show. He plays harder than anyone, works harder, is in the best condition, has the most skills, and busts his butt even if he is sick or injured. I could handle being "his boy" based on his on-the-court game and his off-the-court work ethic.
But there's one thing that trumps all. Kobe is a cowardly backstabber. Bringing up Shaq's name when being questioned by the police . . .
that was low, LOW, LOW!!!! :puke:
-
JoMaL...just the fact you think the Lakers got Odom, Butler, and Grant to compliment Kobe and not because that is really all they could get for Shaq because they didnt want him in the WC keeps me from wanting to continue with you at all. Those guys were not brought in to compliment Kobe. Anyone who thinks otherwise is eating a l ttle bit too much of fungus that grows in the cow patty fields.
For the last and final time JoMaL...the trade was not made solely to please Kobe. There was alot of other things that played into it....
1) Shaq wanted a large extension on his contract at the end of his career.
2) Shaq thought he deserved a raise but did not do more work to warrant one.
3) Shaq took shots at the owner of the team (you know the guy who has the final say)
4) Shaq has 3 or so years left in this league (save injury) Kobe has quite a bit more as he isnt even 30 years old yet (save injury).
5) Shaq has a history of injuries and that is not going to improve as he gets older
6) Jerry Buss likes a faster, more uptempo game. What the Lakers were doing failed 2 years in a row. Jerry felt it was time to try something else. This came from Buss' mouth directly.
7) Shaq was not motivated in LA to get into better playing shape.
Can you please point me to a job where I could insult my boss because I wanted a raise one year even though I do nothing to try to improve my work ethic?
-
Reality wrote: Could Shaq have been just as fueled by his fat ego then needing to prove the Lakers with himself and minus Kobe were better. Thus last years Lakers doing just as well as last years Shaq's Heat? Kobe to the Clips for Maggett and ?? Many other sign n trade possibilities.
msc, Laker and other posters?
Personally, I don't believe Shaq would have been half as motivated had the Lakers jettisoned Kobe instead as he was in Miami. Everyone (apparently) seems to believe that Kobe was the only reason Shaq left. I'd argue he was a very small influence on why he left. Prior to the 2004 season, Shaq wanted an extension and was very verbal about it. Jerry Buss ignored him. Then at a pre-season game in Hawaii, after a dunk, Shaq ran down the court and yelled at Buss, "Give me my f***ing money!". This was the start of it all.
BTW, what is all this "Shaq's ego was hurt b/c they put their faith in Kobe", "Laker management dissed Shaq by siding with Kobe". I thought this was the biggest, baddest, Superman on the planet. Did everyone have to coddle Shaq in order to make sure he worked out and tried his hardest. What happened to pride? And if you have no pride, what about trying your hardest b/c you're being paid millions to do so by your employer and it's the right thing to do? It's laughable to me that many here are putting it all on Kobe and defending Shaq's lack of commitment over his last two seasons in LA. That was the reason they hated each other people .... Kobe had no respect for Shaq because of his lack of work ethic and big-baby Shaq was threatened by someone actually calling him out. The nerve!
No one will argue Shaq’s dominance during the 2000-2003 Championship runs. Remember when Shaq was always a threat to put up 40 and 20 during those games? I do. Then, when teams would focus all of their energy on Shaq, Kobe would slash up their D and drop 40+ on them (see Sac in 2000, 2001, and San Antone in 2001, 2002). That was the winning 1-2 combo that resulted in 3 championships. When was the last time Shaq had a monster game like that? The Shaq of the last three years is lucky to have a 20/10 game. Is he still the biggest force to be reckoned with in the league? Yes, but no where near the force he WAS. Even a slimmed down Shaq this year wasn't all that impressive. Oh yeah, and he always seems to have some nagging injury, errr excuse, err I mean, injury. Do you think these nagging "injuries" have anything to do with his inability to get and stay in shape? I do. Mark my words, he'll have one again next year.
So why on God's green earth would you mortgage your entire franchise for maybe 2 - 3 years of a declining Shaq? I thank Dr. Buss everyday for making the trade. It was a tough decision, but the right one. They weren't winning Championships anymore with Shaq and Kobe. Shoot, they brought in two future hall of famers to play with them and they STILL couldn't get it done. And no one was more responsible for losing to the Pistons than Shaq. He played like a slow, fat, un-motivated un-interested waste-of-flesh-and-bones in that series. It was embarrassing. I was embarrassed for him. And you want the Lakers to give him 2 years, beyond his year left at 60mil? No thanks, he's Miami's financial burden now. They can have him for his geritol years. They can give him a 5-year deal .... that's really smart :crazy:
rickortreat wrote: The bottom line is IT WAS STUPID TO GET RID OF SHAQ.
He made the Lakers championships possible. He is one of the few players in the league that attract other players because they see him as having a get into the finals free card.
rickortreat, I couldn't disagree with you more that it was stupid to get rid of Shaq, as you can tell by my post(s) above. Based on your statement, Miami went to the finals this year? I'm confused, you must have meant 'conference finals'.
rickortreat wrote: In terms of the success for their relative franchises, the score is Shaq 1 (Conference Finals) Kobe & Lakers 0 (lottery pick)
Again, couldn't disagree more. Last time I checked getting to the Conference Finals doesn't mean anything. That and $1.50 might get you a cup of coffee. Maybe in Sacramento or Dallas this is considered a victory, but in Los Angeles, Boston, Detroit, Chicago, and I thought Philly (but your statement is making me wonder) its win it all or nothing. We don't hang our Conference Championship banners up in Staples like they do at Arco ... there isn't room for all of them. And Miami didn't even win one of those ... so I'm not sure how it’s considered 1 for Shaq. All this on top of the fact that Shaq guaranteed the people of Miami a title ... sad. And when you think about it (I think westkoast astutely pointed this out in this thread somewhere) Shaq didn't get Miami that much farther than they went in the playoffs the year before. Considering the expectations and the personnel he had around him, Shaq was more of a failure than Kobe last season, IMO.
-
Regarding the score, in the end all that matters is who has the most rings. Right now Shaq and Kobe are tied at 3, we'll see who wins that contest.
Right now Russel leads the pack.
Kareem and Jordan didn't even come close, doubt anyone will.
-
Score after one season 0 - 0.
Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the score 2 - 0 in favor of Shaq (Miami did win both times, if I'm not mistaken).
I know that me, my wife, and parent's in law watching on Christmas as Kobe dropped 700 points and LOST!
Odom, Butler, and Grant
Alright, I've heard just about enough of how much these players suck, and how they don't fit Kobe, etc. As WK has said this team along with Wade took a stacked Indy team to Game 7 of the second round. Why couldn't this team along with Kobe make the playoffs to have the chance to take a team to Game 7 in the second round. Was Wade (a rookie) last year that much better than the hard-working, multi-talented, skills unlimited, muckety-muck, godsend of a player that is The Kobe?
And Westkoast, the parentheses next to the years were simply denoting that he was a member of the roster. They weren't in anyway to demean the performance and hardwork of Robert Horry, Rick Fox, or any other member of those Laker rosters.
As the last six years are concerned if Shaquille O'Neal happens to be on your roster (in any capacity), your team has made the Finals four of those times, and was 1/2 a quarter away from another one. Ain't bad odds if ya ask me
-
JoMaL...just the fact you think the Lakers got Odom, Butler, and Grant to compliment Kobe and not because that is really all they could get for Shaq because they didnt want him in the WC keeps me from wanting to continue with you at all. Those guys were not brought in to compliment Kobe. Anyone who thinks otherwise is eating a l ttle bit too much of fungus that grows in the cow patty fields.
If Shaq is so washed up, why would the Lakers care if he played in the WC instead of the EC? Could it be because they knew he would have that motivation the Lakers could not provide while he was still on the team if they did something like that and they did not want to address that issue four times each season?
And I clearly know those players were not brought in to compliment Kobe. Last season proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt. But then, you are picking on an issue that I really don't care about. My issue is that the Lakers are going to have trouble attracting players who MIGHT be complimentary because, well, of Kobe and how he may be getting a reputation as not the best teammate to have.
The issue, westkoast, is about Kobe being able to help the Lakers in recruiting. You know, like Shaq could do. That sort of thing.
Now, are you going to run off again on a tangent issue over that comment once again? Remember now. Think about players making a decision of their own free will, not traded players, who usually have little to say about where they are sent.
For the last and final time JoMaL...the trade was not made solely to please Kobe. There was alot of other things that played into it....
1) Shaq wanted a large extension on his contract at the end of his career.
2) Shaq thought he deserved a raise but did not do more work to warrant one.
3) Shaq took shots at the owner of the team (you know the guy who has the final say)
4) Shaq has 3 or so years left in this league (save injury) Kobe has quite a bit more as he isnt even 30 years old yet (save injury).
5) Shaq has a history of injuries and that is not going to improve as he gets older
6) Jerry Buss likes a faster, more uptempo game. What the Lakers were doing failed 2 years in a row. Jerry felt it was time to try something else. This came from Buss' mouth directly.
7) Shaq was not motivated in LA to get into better playing shape.
Forget all of that about why Shaq did or did not force a trade.
Think about why shouldn't LA trade Kobe now before it is too late?
Can you please point me to a job where I could insult my boss because I wanted a raise one year even though I do nothing to try to improve my work ethic?
Focus. Why should the Lakers keep Kobe around if he may not get the players needed to actually improve the team to a place where you once were? Is he really the only guy in the NBA who the Lakers could center their team around, or has his time in LA run its course and they should try something else.
And please, let's just forget about Shaq. All he is now to LA is a distraction from the point I was originally making about the Laker keeping Kobe.
-
Anyone who could "thank Dr. Buss everyday for making the trade" of Shaquille O'Neal is kdding themselves about O'Neal's true value.
O'Neal's value is determined by his MOTIVATION. His MOTIVATION in Los Angeles his last two years was crap - I admit that. SO TELL THE COACHING STAFF TO FIX IT, the same way you would if this was a rookie with a flaw in his shot.
If I'm Kupchak, I re-sign Kobe while Shaq is still there. Why? I intend to give the team to Kobe. I intend to massage his ego so that that way, he's not sending Shaq out of town - he's LORDING OVER HIM. You tell me - which would you rather have - a coaching staff talking about how a sure-fire Hall-Of-Famer is subservient to you, or writers writing about "what could have been." I'd point out to Kobe that when Magic took over for Kareem, he didn't ship the Big Fella out of town. He didn't even take the title of "Cap" away from Kareem. But with the situation, and O'Neal's often lackadaisical approach, OUR coach just happens to feel that we need to take away that captain title from Shaq and everyone else, and give it to Kobe.
And after Kobe inks his deal, I'm going to lay down the law to Shaq. It's Kobe's team. Kobe will get to have input on the coach, but you won't. Kobe will be on the cover of our media guide, and you won't. And every step of the way, I'm going to be in Shaq's face saying, "Kobe, Kobe, Kobe." I might even "accidentally" call Shaq "Kobe" in our conversation!
And then, I'm going to say, "But I'm on your side, Shaq. I think you're the better player, and the only thing that deserves the title of 'big and fat' is your contract. And it'll be easy to get it for you, if you can take the team back by getting into the best shape of your career, and bringing it to the floor the way that nobody else can."
When all is said and done, Shaq and Kobe will absolutely despise me. Big deal. They're together, and they're each focused on winning - albeit for their own selfish, petty reasons. I can live with that.
-
Score after one season 0 - 0.
Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the score 2 - 0 in favor of Shaq (Miami did win both times, if I'm not mistaken).
We're talking season-playoffs combo, with of course hugest emphasis on playoffs.
It's only been one season at this point.
-
Joe Vancil wrote: Anyone who could "thank Dr. Buss everyday for making the trade" of Shaquille O'Neal is kdding themselves about O'Neal's true value.
I'm not kidding myself about his value at all. I just don't think that he is worth $30mil/year for three more years in the twilight of his career. The way I see it, the Lakers could start rebuilding now (i.e., last year) or they can start in three years when Shaq's extension expires. Why not start now?
Look, IMO, Wade was the best guard in the league last season in terms of all around game. Better than Kobe, better than Nash, better than everyone. I love Wade. I love his game, I love his attitude. I like him better than Kobe. If Shaq can't win it with Kobe (he wasn't able to the last two years they were together), he certainly should be able to win it with Wade, assuming Kobe is the "weak link" in the relationship. Well, he went to Miami, Wade had an incredible season, and they couldn't get past Detroit. What gives? Here's what gives: Shaq is a shell of his former self ... he is on the downside of his career. A guy who used to routinely put up 40-20 games in the playoffs now puts up 20/10 games. IT IS NOT WORTH SIGNING HIM FOR $30 MIL/YEAR AT THIS POINT IN HIS CAREER, WHEN EACH YEAR HE IS ONLY GOING TO GET WORSE. I will stand by that statement. I believe I have a great grasp of his value that is why I agree with Buss's decision. It didn't pay off for Miami and I will bet they never see a championship with Shaq. Last year was their year to do it. It takes a lot of stars to align (no pun intended) to get to the NBA Finals. A team must avoid injury, have role players step up at crucial times, buy in to the coaches system, get a little lucky here and there, etc., etc. Shaq has shown he can't play a full season for what, 5 or so years now? So next year he's going to be in shape, play a whole season, and step up in the playoffs?!?!? I don't see it. He hasn't done it in three years, he won't do it now. Face it. Shaq has lost his edge. Before he had won a title, he had an edge, he had something to prove, he had a drive. I witnessed it first hand. Once he won three, the monkey was off of his back and he didn't have that same edge. Face it, he's lost that lovin' feeling, it's long gone, gone, gone. Whoa whoa whoa. Best of luck to Miami, but I'm glad we got rid of him when we did. I was calling for the trade of Shaq before it ever happened. Get something for him while you can, he's done.
Joe, you're idea to sign Kobe and have a heart felt talk with both of them is beautiful. I wish it could have worked out that way. They tried that for two years and the two apparently could not co-exist. I put the blame on both of their shoulders evenly for being egomaniacal brats. But moving forward, I'm going to look long-term and keep the 26 year old who's still getting better over the 32 year old who is a shadow of his former self. You can call me crazy, or say I don't understand basketball or the business of basketball, but it's a no brainer to me. Look, I don't even like Kobe much as a person. I like Shaq off the court. I love what he does in the community, I like that he's light and jovial with the media. But my ultimate allegiance is with the Lakers, not one individual player and I believe Dr. Buss made the right decision. I would have done the same thing. Maybe we're both wrong, but Miami didn't bulldoze it's way to a Championship this year, so I'm not convinced we were wrong yet.
-
Think about why shouldn't LA trade Kobe now before it is too late?
Heres a pretty decent reason.........CUZ THERE IS NO ONE THEY CAN GET IN RETURN FOR HIM. Who possibly can they trade for Kobe and get the same player back in return? Ill start the timer for when you come back with a half way reasonable reply.
Focus. Why should the Lakers keep Kobe around if he may not get the players needed to actually improve the team to a place where you once were? Is he really the only guy in the NBA who the Lakers could center their team around, or has his time in LA run its course and they should try something else.
JoMaL..please put your thinking cap on today. Since when is Kobe the GM and in charge of recruiting new talent. I guess *IF* is very important in Sac-town. You dont know, do you? They've had one season where they didnt make the playoffs. Its been ONE season JoMaL. Not 3 not 5. One. A little quick to judge arent we? I mean its painfully obvious you are throwing out logic because of your hate for Kobe.
Did you ever think players will decide to come to LA because its a big media outlet and because the Lakers could offer them good money? In a league filled with players who only care about a paycheck im sure the first thought in their mind is 'I wonder if Kobe will hang out with me'
-
Heres a pretty decent reason.........CUZ THERE IS NO ONE THEY CAN GET IN RETURN FOR HIM. Who possibly can they trade for Kobe and get the same player back in return? Ill start the timer for when you come back with a half way reasonable reply.
Okay, you want a half way decent answer? Here you go:
It doesn't matter.
This is a sample of addition by subtraction. I am suggesting you need to get rid of Kobe and let him try his luck elsewhere so the Lakers can go back to a semblance of normality and can attract players who want to come there.
Your situation is clearly in a rebuilding mold anyway for the next few years, so expectations of winning is not likely. But having a clean slate to do much is hindered by Bryant still being there.
Besides, you traded Shaq for less then he was worth. Kobe could bring at least a comparable deal, maybe better.
JoMaL..please put your thinking cap on today. Since when is Kobe the GM and in charge of recruiting new talent. I guess *IF* is very important in Sac-town. You dont know, do you? They've had one season where they didnt make the playoffs. Its been ONE season JoMaL. Not 3 not 5. One. A little quick to judge arent we? I mean its painfully obvious you are throwing out logic because of your hate for Kobe.
Did you ever think players will decide to come to LA because its a big media outlet and because the Lakers could offer them good money? In a league filled with players who only care about a paycheck im sure the first thought in their mind is 'I wonder if Kobe will hang out with me'
Kobe should concern you more for how he works with his teammates as much as anything else. I am just not seeing much enthusiasm from anyone coming to the Lakers these days, and it would seem it should be for those reasons you stated as well as the history.
And I beg to differ about his input with trades and such. Teams quite often consult with their key players when playing acquisitions, and in Bryant's case, that would definitely be factored in. I heard he was asked prior to the Brown trade that involved his best friend on the team, and he said it was fine by him.
-
Kobe should concern you more for how he works with his teammates as much as anything else. I am just not seeing much enthusiasm from anyone coming to the Lakers these days, and it would seem it should be for those reasons you stated as well as the history.
And I beg to differ about his input with trades and such. Teams quite often consult with their key players when playing acquisitions, and in Bryant's case, that would definitely be factored in. I heard he was asked prior to the Brown trade that involved his best friend on the team, and he said it was fine by him.
What do you expect Kobe to say -- that he doesn't want Brown because it cost him the guy he likes best on the Lakers? Let's see, on one hand, Kobe is supposed to allow management to make the decisions and on the other hand he is supposed to pitch a fit when he doesn't like a trade. Because Kobe says it's "fine by him" that means that he doesn't care? Kobe doesn't make the decisions, does he? He is trying to be a team player and you even rack him for that! Kinda sounds like Kobe couldn't make you happy no matter WHAT he does!!!
What I think is GREAT is that you seem to know the thoughts of every NBA player -- nobody in the league wants to come play with Kobe! Wow, you have surveyed every NBA player and know that as fact, I'm impressed JoMal.
Why don't you admit that your comments are based on your own hypothesis rather than fact. We don't KNOW that nobody wants to come play with Kobe because at this point, nobody CAN come play with Kobe. There isn't the opportunity because the Lakers are over the cap and have very little trade bait to interest teams. I have yet to hear that "so-and-so" team was discussing a trade but "said" player refused to go to the Lakers because he didn't want to play with Kobe.
So do you KNOW that other players in the NBA don't want to go play with Kobe -- or do you just THINK that other players don't want to go play with Kobe? Notice you don't hear Vlade talking about the fact that he can't stand Kobe -- that he didn't want to play with Kobe. I think you need to separate fact from fiction -- the fact is something, at this point, that we don't know -- the fiction is what is spewing from your posts.
-
Just in case no one realized it, that was my post above!
-
"Kobe should concern you more for how he works with his teammates as much as anything else. I am just not seeing much enthusiasm from anyone coming to the Lakers these days, and it would seem it should be for those reasons you stated as well as the history."
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Please share your inside information with us JoMaL on how you are gauging the levels of excitement of anyone stepping foot into LA. You know id tell you otherwise, being that these guys show up in public here ( you know clubs, venues, and places to eat) and on shows such as Jay Leno talking about how fun it is to play in LA.....but why bother you with words out of their mouth (or them having a great time) when we have such solid assumptions to run with?
On the court? Did you notice a different attitude when they were playing half way decent at the begging of the season? How about when they started to lose alot? Did you see a change then? Had to have been all Kobe doing that! They werent down because they were losing, they were down because Kobe did something! Not sure what but he did it! Kobe didnt work well with teammates this season...that is why he had a career year in the assists department and had numerious double digit assist games.
"I heard he was asked prior to the Brown trade that involved his best friend on the team, and he said it was fine by him"
Oh I could see it now, Kobe says he thinks the trade is bad because he likes Caron and management does it anyways...
In swoops JoMaL like the cape crusader of critism to talk about how all Kobe does is alienate new players who are comming to his team. Oh man would the hate sign be flashing in the clouds ( or on a barn ) for you to fly in if Kobe were to say that.
-
What do you expect Kobe to say -- that he doesn't want Brown because it cost him the guy he likes best on the Lakers? Let's see, on one hand, Kobe is supposed to allow management to make the decisions and on the other hand he is supposed to pitch a fit when he doesn't like a trade. Because Kobe says it's "fine by him" that means that he doesn't care? Kobe doesn't make the decisions, does he? He is trying to be a team player and you even rack him for that! Kinda sounds like Kobe couldn't make you happy no matter WHAT he does!!!
Randy, what on earth are you talking about.
I don't care whether Kobe is consulted on personnel decisions or not, and as I stated, it is not uncommon for management to consult with their key players on transactions. And I certainly would think Kobe, or any other player, would be honest in their assessments if asked for them.
What I think is GREAT is that you seem to know the thoughts of every NBA player -- nobody in the league wants to come play with Kobe! Wow, you have surveyed every NBA player and know that as fact, I'm impressed JoMal.
Neither do you so you have no idea if they actually DO want to come play with Kobe.
But, gee Randy, ummmm, let's consider the exit poll of players who actually HAVE played with your Mr. Bryant.
YIKES!!!! I can see why you don't want to go there!!! :eek2:
Why don't you admit that your comments are based on your own hypothesis rather than fact. We don't KNOW that nobody wants to come play with Kobe because at this point, nobody CAN come play with Kobe. There isn't the opportunity because the Lakers are over the cap and have very little trade bait to interest teams.
Thank God for that, huh Randy? What a mess it could be if the Lakers actually had cap space and tradable material. Man, it sure is fortunate you have THOSE little arguements to fall back on, or where would you be?
I have yet to hear that "so-and-so" team was discussing a trade but "said" player refused to go to the Lakers because he didn't want to play with Kobe.
There are compelling reasons other then Kobe that lure players to want to play in Los Angeles and especially with the Lakers. That is the thing, though, is it not? You are not likely to hear anything like you suggest, because LA will do its own PR for the players involved. Why do so many who leave the team not seem too upset then? I suppose suggestions about player chemistry and job satisfaction are no longer relevant arguements for me to make at this point.
So do you KNOW that other players in the NBA don't want to go play with Kobe -- or do you just THINK that other players don't want to go play with Kobe? Notice you don't hear Vlade talking about the fact that he can't stand Kobe -- that he didn't want to play with Kobe. I think you need to separate fact from fiction -- the fact is something, at this point, that we don't know -- the fiction is what is spewing from your posts.
I think Vlade looked forward to playing with Kobe. So what? Vlade made friends with Chris Webber and welcomed him to SacTown and it improved Chris' image to be viewed in that positive light. Vlade is the ultimate team player, who worked out kinks in all relationships and made light of everything and problems just seemed to go away with him around. The best roll-playing center in the League, in his prime, no question. He made everyone happy because they all could get good looks at the basket with him running things.
Man oh man, could the Lakers use him next year instead of who you got to play the middle instead.
Good luck.
-
<That was just confusing to have posted twice>
-
<But to post it three times - I blame the system for not acknowledging it the first two times>
-
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Please share your inside information with us JoMaL on how you are gauging the levels of excitement of anyone stepping foot into LA. You know id tell you otherwise, being that these guys show up in public here ( you know clubs, venues, and places to eat) and on shows such as Jay Leno talking about how fun it is to play in LA.....but why bother you with words out of their mouth (or them having a great time) when we have such solid assumptions to run with?
Players who come to Los Angeles enjoy the nightlife once there. Stop the presses.
When they open up a nightclub at Staples owned by Kobe and all his teammates show up, let me know.
And when they leave the Lakers, they never sound off over the city, do they?
Sorry if this all comes across to you like rocket science, westkoast, but when did Kobe=Los Angeles?
On the court? Did you notice a different attitude when they were playing half way decent at the begging of the season? How about when they started to lose alot? Did you see a change then? Had to have been all Kobe doing that! They werent down because they were losing, they were down because Kobe did something! Not sure what but he did it! Kobe didnt work well with teammates this season...that is why he had a career year in the assists department and had numerious double digit assist games.
Now you're just being foolish and I am insulted for the first time by what you are saying. KOBE, if you have forgotten, IS the offensive focus of the Lakers. You can count on one hand the number of offensive sets the Lakers ran all of last year when Kobe was on the court and the ball WAS NOT in his hands. That is just a ridiculous argument and you know it.
And prey tell, what did you expect his teammates to do? Throw the ball out of bounds instead of passing it to Kobe? Keep their hands at their sides on feeds by Bryant to the basket?
Is this argument really just as black and white as that to you? Give me some credit for a better understanding of this situation then that, because I find it embarassing FOR YOU even having to address this nonsense.
I'm not going to bother with the rest of this.
-
Neither do you so you have no idea if they actually DO want to come play with Kobe.
But, gee Randy, ummmm, let's consider the exit poll of players who actually HAVE played with your Mr. Bryant.
YIKES!!!! I can see why you don't want to go there!!!
Sure, I do -- I'd LOVE to go there! So trot out your comments from players leaving LA outside of Shaq!
Malone was tight with Kobe until he made the comments to his wife.
GP (and agent) has already contacted the Lakers about returning this fall.
I've heard comments that Horry has made but they have more to do with Shaq than they did Kobe.
So, sure, pony them out there, we can discuss them.
Thank God for that, huh Randy? What a mess it could be if the Lakers actually had cap space and tradable material. Man, it sure is fortunate you have THOSE little arguments to fall back on, or where would you be?
Well, that's certainly one way to back up your argument - state that I can't prove my hypothesis even though you can't prove yours either. I've been saying ALL along (while you've been yapping) that we are going to have to wait to see who is correct. I believe that it has a WHOLE lot more to do with money than it does Kobe -- why? Because that's what players play for around this league. We've only seen a handful of players make any exceptions to the rule but we don't lambast every team that doesn't get someone to give up money to play for their team, do we? Just the team and player you don't like! I think you've been eating too many of those sour grapes again!!!
-
Players who come to Los Angeles enjoy the nightlife once there. Stop the presses.
When they open up a nightclub at Staples owned by Kobe and all his teammates show up, let me know.
And when they leave the Lakers, they never sound off over the city, do they?
Sorry if this all comes across to you like rocket science, westkoast, but when did Kobe=Los Angeles?
This might be crazy to you JoMaL but these guys actually talk to people in the clubs, around town, and are on local tv saying things all bright eyed with a smile ear to ear. If it was so horrible being in LA and playing for LA then why are they telling people in the club they love playing ball in LA? Who had a problem with Kobe last year? You seem to know how all NBA players think so lets hear it. Chuck Atkins.....some random anonamous source :rolleyes:
See JoMaL...here in LA there is plenty to do and these players are out all the time doing things in LA. Ive seen Odom shopping and at a venue for some hip hop group. So while you are running with this Miss Cleo psychic ability..I am going off of what people in LA have been told.
Now you're just being foolish and I am insulted for the first time by what you are saying. KOBE, if you have forgotten, IS the offensive focus of the Lakers. You can count on one hand the number of offensive sets the Lakers ran all of last year when Kobe was on the court and the ball WAS NOT in his hands. That is just a ridiculous argument and you know it.
JoMaL....the lakers ran two different offensive schemes last year. So cut the 'we can count the number of sets the Lakers ran on one hand' The argument isnt ridiculous. Whats ridiculous is the fact that you think everything is controlled by Kobe...the attitude of the team and each player, personel moves, and of course anything else that needs a decision to be made in Staples Center. I personally blame Kobe for the cost of Krispy Kreme's in the Staples Center.
And prey tell, what did you expect his teammates to do? Throw the ball out of bounds instead of passing it to Kobe? Keep their hands at their sides on feeds by Bryant to the basket?
What the hell are you talking about? If Kobe was so horrible with his teammates on the court then why was his assists up? Why was he staying late after practice trying to show Mihm and others where they need to be in the triangle? Why did he call Caron Butler the minute he got sent to the Lakers to start working out with him? You seem to have this uncanny ability to read the minds of NBA players so please tell us what the real problem was instead of just saying random things.
Is this argument really just as black and white as that to you? Give me some credit for a better understanding of this situation then that, because I find it embarassing FOR YOU even having to address this nonsense.
I'm not going to bother with the rest of this
Id love to give you credit for a better understanding of this situation but you cant seem to grasp simple concepts and continue to run with assumptions you thought up yourself without any real hard facts to back it up.
-
These arent' current, but gee they sound like they could be
Sports
February 8, 2001
Shaq, Kobe: Know your roles
They continue their immature squabble with Lakers' season hanging in the balance
BY DAVID GONEN
Sports n' Stuff
The Johns Hopkins News-Letter
.......A more reliable barometer for the situation are the other 10 players on the Lakers. Several of them have lodged complaints against Kobe that he is often too selfish and does not get his teammates involved.
These are the opinions that matter, for as much importance people are placing on Kobe and Shaq, it's the other guys on the floor who are going to determine the Laker's fate this year.
These players are simply not involved in the offense the way they were last year. Last year, when the offense ran through Shaq, he made a great effort to involve the rest of his team. His assist statistics were better than any other big man in the league.
This year, players feel that once they give the ball to Kobe, they might as well hurry back for defense because they're not getting the ball back.
It is no surprise that the Laker's team defense has gone from superb to awful. The other Lakers are frustrated on offense, which translates into lack of motivation on defense.
So, as badly as Shaq has handled it, he does have a point. The Lakers are a better team when the offense runs through him. And he is a better player.....
http://www.jhu.edu/~newslett/02-8-01/Sports/7.html (http://www.jhu.edu/~newslett/02-8-01/Sports/7.html)
Defensive effort
The 'bag man's All-Star picks come under fire
Posted: Friday January 24, 2003 1:31 PMÂ
Sports Illustrated senior writer Jack McCallum
...The main insider complaints about Kobe are: he isolates himself from his teammates and isn't a good enough leader; he criticizes the other Lakers too much; and he is prone to operate outside the triangle offense.....
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_ga.../01/24/mailbag/ (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/jack_mccallum/news/2003/01/24/mailbag/)
Mr. Triangle Kobe Bryant was showing others where they had to be in the Triangle :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Do you mean he was showing them how to be out of position in it?
Now, these are not current, so you will be coming back at me on that. Let me assure you, my reason is that it is THIS image of Bryant that still lingers today. The argument that "he's changed" carries as much weight with teammates as it does with the judge adjudicating a domestic battery trial.
And if you are trying to justify somehow that Kobe Bryant did not initiate the Laker offense last year, it would help if this were somehow visually relayed to anyone who watched the team at all. Two offenses, one when he was on the court and one when he was off. I get it.
Whats ridiculous is the fact that you think everything is controlled by Kobe...the attitude of the team and each player, personel moves, and of course anything else that needs a decision to be made in Staples Center. I personally blame Kobe for the cost of Krispy Kreme's in the Staples Center.
What's utterly ridiculous is your continuous lame attempt to justify your own argument by continually saying this about what I am talking about when only YOU are fixated on it. So clearly this is your own opinion because it never was, nor never did I ever indicate that Kobe was the control freak ON ALL THINGS IN LOS ANGELES that you make him out to be.
How did my opinion that the Lakers are going to find it hard to attract a quality star NBA player back to Los Angeles to play along side Kobe Bryant get twisted into my being psychic about what every other player in the NBA thinks, that Kobe runs the Lakers, that Kobe is, in fact, the equivalent of Los Angeles - that "the attitude of the team and each player, personel moves, and of course anything else that needs a decision to be made in Staples Center" comes from Kobe? To even the cost of Krispy Kreme's at Staple?
Then you accuse me of having an opinion based on these psychic musings. Guess what? It IS my opinion. That's all. Sorry if your bloated Laker egoes can't handle a negative opinion about your damned team and the cesspool of a city you live in, but congradulations on finally ferreting it out that I AM expressing an opinion here. That it apparently is making you all sick about it is a shame, but hardly affects it and won't.
Do you have any idea of the intellectual morass such pathetic arguments require to even respond to?
But honestly, the Lakers can keep Kobe, trade him, leave him in a bag on a park bench somewhere, or trade him to a college soriety to be their pull toy. I can't say his doing any of those things will make much of a difference until the Lakers figure it out. Not Kobe. I said the LAKERS
I am talking about whether or not it makes sense to trade Kobe Bryant now, since the team will be rebuilding anyway and his baggage is extreme and could be detrimental to the franchise over the next few seasons. If you guys want to continue to respond to that premise with a blithering dribblefest of mortification, so be it.
-
"Mr. Triangle Kobe Bryant was showing others where they had to be in the Triangle
Do you mean he was showing them how to be out of position in it?"
Dont make comments about people spewing non-sense when you make comments like this. You obviously didnt see very many Laker games the 2nd half of the season did you JoMaL?
Did you ever notice how players being out of place caused the triangle to break down and guys like Caron and Kobe were forced to freelance because of bad spacing? Oh wait you didnt :laugh:
Two offenses JoMaL...one geared around Kobe with Rudy. The other the triangle offense put in mid-season. Please tell us how along with your psychic ability to know what all NBA players are thinking that you also can comment on 82 games where you get to watch a whooppin 10-15 per year.
If you guys want to continue to respond to that premise with a blithering dribblefest of mortification, so be it.
Just giving you a taste of your own medicine here...that is all. Hook, line, and sinker. As for dribblefest...is this comming from the same JoMaL who knows how every single NBA player feels about Kobe Bryant personally and whether or not they would ever goto the Lakers? Cuz we all know money isnt the most important factor in this league for players when they sign somewhere else right?
then you accuse me of having an opinion based on these psychic musings. Guess what? It IS my opinion. That's all.
Maybe you should start acting like they are opinions and not stone cold facts. Im not the only person who saw this JoMaL, Randy has also.
See JoMaL you think because you personally dont like Kobe that everyone feels the same way. Some people do give people the benefit of the doubt and would like to get to know them personally before they start to hate them like you do.
-
"Mr. Triangle Kobe Bryant was showing others where they had to be in the Triangle Â
Do you mean he was showing them how to be out of position in it?"
Dont make comments about people spewing non-sense when you make comments like this. You obviously didnt see very many Laker games the 2nd half of the season did you JoMaL?
Did you ever notice how players being out of place caused the triangle to break down and guys like Caron and Kobe were forced to freelance because of bad spacing? Oh wait you didnt :laugh:
THAT was not my opinion, westkoast. It was just my added commentary to someone else who for some reason felt Kobe messed up the triangle all on his own. You should have seen that for yourself, but once again your struggles continue.
Two offenses JoMaL...one geared around Kobe with Rudy. The other the triangle offense put in mid-season. Please tell us how along with your psychic ability to know what all NBA players are thinking that you also can comment on 82 games where you get to watch a whooppin 10-15 per year.
And which of those offenses ignored Bryant?
Just giving you a taste of your own medicine here...that is all. Hook, line, and sinker. As for dribblefest...is this comming from the same JoMaL who knows how every single NBA player feels about Kobe Bryant personally and whether or not they would ever goto the Lakers? Cuz we all know money isnt the most important factor in this league for players when they sign somewhere else right?
Once your translation gets through my language filter, I will predict once again that you will say my opinion is actually some kind of omnipresent, all-knowing ability that defies gravity.
I bet you are sitting down right now.
See? I knew that.
Maybe you should start acting like they are opinions and not stone cold facts. Im not the only person who saw this JoMaL, Randy has also.
See JoMaL you think because you personally dont like Kobe that everyone feels the same way. Some people do give people the benefit of the doubt and would like to get to know them personally before they start to hate them like you do.
Maybe you should remove your head from its unnatural position and view what I have submitted here for what they always were and always have been - just my opinions. I never intended to overwhelm you with anything that may give you a rupture about your precious Kobe.
But just because I personally do not like Kobe, in which I am not alone, does not affect my opinion that Kobe's image is not steller. I am sure that money and location would certainly make many players go anywhere they can if all things are equal. Kobe has money; the Lakers have money. Between them, they just might make his questionable past disappear.
Do you guys want collaborating documentation on that? I'm not really interested in finding any, so don't ask.
But you certainly are welcome to your own opinion of that wonderful young man with a beautiful wife, to whom he is constantly faithful, who has a terrific relationship with his father, his home town, all of the basketball players in the entire world, and his coaches, none of whom have ever said a bad word about him.
Gee, I wish he was MY personal buttlicker to the stars. You guys are so blessed to be in the same sphere as him, no wonder you agree with everything in that statement. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
-
What the hell are you talking about? If Kobe was so horrible with his teammates on the court then why was his assists up? Why was he staying late after practice trying to show Mihm and others where they need to be in the triangle? Why did he call Caron Butler the minute he got sent to the Lakers to start working out with him? You seem to have this uncanny ability to read the minds of NBA players so please tell us what the real problem was instead of just saying random things.
A while back, I hurt my knee on the basketball court. Couldn't bend it all the way. Ended up going to the doctor, getting it diagnosed, and then ended up doing some re-hab work on it for quite some time before it really got better.
The same could be said of Kobe Bryant. His behavoir hurt his image really, really bad. He was to blame - right or wrong - for Shaq and Phil leaving town. And now, he's having to do re-hab work. Phil is back. He's addressing the complaints about him not being the kind of teammate he should be. He's showing the new Lakers where they should be in the triangle according to Kobe. (Whether that's the triangle according to Phil and Tex, we'll soon see.)
As for the "why were his assists up" comment? Let me point out that Iverson's assists are higher than Kobe's...so obviously, Iverson isn't a selfish teammate, either.
Strangest thing, though. You know what I did once my knee got better? I went out and played basketball. After all, the knee was sound. I admit to favoring it a bit - just to be careful - but I still looked to use it the same way I always had before.
Think Kobe might do the same thing with his behavior?
And for Kobe and Butler being forced to free-lance in the Laker offense at the end of last season? The Caron Butler I knew in Miami did quite a bit of free-lancing. That was a drive-and-kick, drive-and-kick, drive-and-kick kind of team. And as for Bryant, wasn't he one to "free-lance" in the triangle long before last year?
Got to wonder why those players were out of position all the time if Byrant was showing him where he wanted them to be. Oh, I'm not saying Bryant PURPOSELY showed them the wrong place, because how would I know? But I am saying that it's amazing how quickly Bryant adopted the triangle once the two people who knew it best - Phil and Tex - were gone.
is this comming from the same JoMaL who knows how every single NBA player feels about Kobe Bryant personally and whether or not they would ever goto the Lakers? Cuz we all know money isnt the most important factor in this league for players when they sign somewhere else right?
Neither JoMal nor anyone else has to know how every single player feels to get a grasp of the situation and form his own opinion as to how HE would react in such a situation. One can only assume that there is at least a significant percentage of people who would react in the same way.
I wouldn't play with Kobe Bryant (assuming I had a choice). I wouldn't trust him. I believe he'd talk down to me. I believe he'd be more interested in his image than in mine - even to the point of tarnishing mine just to save his own, when he was "caught" in a compromising situation. And if I were tempted to, I'd remember Karl Malone - who hated Bryant in the All-Star game, played with him and became his friend and spoke highly of him, and then was trashed by Bryant in the media. And I'd take Karl Malone out to a quiet dinner, my treat, and ask him what he thought of Bryant; whether he was simply paying lip service like a good teammate would do when he played alongside of Bryant, or whether Bryant was really a good teammate.
However, you're right that money buys a lot of friends. If you offer me $6 million a year when I'm only worth $3 million a year, I might take it. How is *THAT* going to help the Lakers' cap situation?
-
I wouldn't play with Kobe Bryant (assuming I had a choice). I wouldn't trust him. I believe he'd talk down to me. I believe he'd be more interested in his image than in mine - even to the point of tarnishing mine just to save his own, when he was "caught" in a compromising situation. And if I were tempted to, I'd remember Karl Malone - who hated Bryant in the All-Star game, played with him and became his friend and spoke highly of him, and then was trashed by Bryant in the media. And I'd take Karl Malone out to a quiet dinner, my treat, and ask him what he thought of Bryant; whether he was simply paying lip service like a good teammate would do when he played alongside of Bryant, or whether Bryant was really a good teammate.
Joe, you make a lot of good points about Kobe but you fail on the part with Malone. Malone was the one who broke media silence first -- and it blew up from there. I'm not saying that Kobe isn't to fault -- he STILL should have kept his mouth shut (when has Karl EVER been able to keep his mouth shut). Malone and Bryant had become very good friends (the two couples were spending a lot of time together) until Malone made his comments to Kobe. I think Kobe still struggles in what it means to: 1) have a good friend and 2) be a good friend. However, while MJ was a great teammate -- nobody on the Bulls was a "good friend" to MJ -- he did his own thing too.
Kobe did a horrible thing -- he cheated on his wife and lied about it. It drops him a great deal in my eyes -- I will not condone those actions or support them -- ever. But many have chosen to condemn Kobe to a guilty verdict and I don't know whether Kobe was guilty or not. There are some things that don't look very good for Kobe -- but the testimony and actions of the accuser leave a WHOLE lot of questions for me.
As for Kobe on the basketball court, time will see who is correct about whether people will play with Kobe -- but the fact is that we have seen players act incredibly selfish and do incredibly stupid things (Latrell, Artest, Rodman and the list goes on) and players STILL play with them -- because players in the NBA (for the most part) base their careers on a couple of things: 1) earning money; 2) getting to play; and 3) a chance at a championship (probably in that order too).
They didn't have to pay people more money to play with any of those other players -- I think it's interesting that you think they are going to have to pay Kobe more.
PS - as for Kobe being the reason why PJ and Shaq are gone -- you are STILL wrong about that. They didn't even ASK PJ if he wanted to come back -- Buss didn't want to have to pay him the kind of money PJ would have wanted. Shaq was demanding the Max and Buss didn't want to pay it -- plain and simple. You guys keep forgetting that Shaq wasn't in shape -- hadn't been for years and that's just a BAD investment for a stock that is plummeting so why buy more shares? Did Kobe factor into the equation -- of course, he did -- but the biggest factor was money, plain and simple. It's like declaring that the civil war was fought for the rights of states for segregation -- that was only one of the factors and it certainly wasn't the largest factor (although one could argue it became the largest factor by the end of the war). Kobe did factor into the decision but Buss has done what he has done for years (it's the reason West left) -- he makes his own decisions.
And most people forgot that the Lakers were playing fairly decent ball (given their roster) until Kobe got hurt -- and then Odom and the rest of the squad went down with injuries as well. It was a bad season for the Lakers for injuries.
I don't think there's a "plague" on the Lakers -- and I think we will see that when the Lakers clear cap space. What I struggle with is that most superstars in the league aren't going to change teams -- it just doesn't happen these days unless they insist on a trade -- so that means the Lakers are going to have to build with stars and through the draft. Well, the Lakers aren't going to do badly enough to fare well in the draft and most of the FA "stars" are getting WAY overpaid (and it has ZERO to do with Kobe, does it?) and therefore that's going to hurt the Lakers as well. I think the Lakers have a couple of pieces to trade -- but they are going to have to either hope that someone in the frontcourt realizes their potential or trade Odom for a quality big man (and those are VERY hard to come by, aren't they?).
-
"Got to wonder why those players were out of position all the time if Byrant was showing him where he wanted them to be. Oh, I'm not saying Bryant PURPOSELY showed them the wrong place, because how would I know? But I am saying that it's amazing how quickly Bryant adopted the triangle once the two people who knew it best - Phil and Tex - were gone."
There were a number of reasons. Guys like Slava could never figure out where to be as the offense started to shift and the ball was moved. Even under Phil and Tex Slava was often caught in the wrong spot. Not saying hes on the weak side when hes suppose to be on the strong side....but more like 3-4 steps from where he should be. 3-4 steps doesnt sound like alot but it does mess with spacing. Kobe use to point Slava and Samaki to the right spot all the time. This is something hes done for a while....since the first championship just about.
Guys like Chucky Atkins and Lamar Odom had problems running bread and butter triangle plays like the ever so successfull hand off and cut move at the top of the key. Atkins also had trouble getting to his spot after giving up the ball. Atkins was often seen just standing in the same spot after giving up the ball...another boo boo in spacing.
Phil Jackson has said many times before that Kobe knows the triangle and thats part of the reason he would get mad when Kobe would get away from it. He got away from it because that was an on court decision he made, not because he didnt know how to run it. If anyone on this left over squad knows the triangle its Kobe Bryant. Much moreso than Kurt Rambis or Brian Shaw who were put in charge of bringing it back. Im pretty sure Kobe didnt really want to go back to the triangle, especially with knowing the Lakers were struggling and its not something you pick up over the all-star break. However, I think that was his way of trying to do the right thing and do what hes told by the coaching staff.
-
Randy,
For the most part, I agree with you. However there are a few places where I don't.
There are some things that don't look very good for Kobe -- but the testimony and actions of the accuser leave a WHOLE lot of questions for me.
The actions of the accuser indicate that she's somewhat unstable. Bryant's defense team did a little TOO GOOD of a job of getting that point across. The instability of the accuser makes her story a little more believable to me. Why? Because so much of it fits the facts in evidence. She had things to hide, and Bryant had things to hide. I'm not one to believe that because a person has things to hide that that makes everything they say or do suspect. Saint and sinner have a lot more in common that most people think. Airing a person's dirty laundry is generally an attempt to distract. I tend to push through that.
Translation: Never put me on a jury. I look for WHAT IS BELIEVABLE and the motivation behind it. If I don't see both of those things, I don't inherently trust the information.
As for Kobe on the basketball court, time will see who is correct about whether people will play with Kobe -- but the fact is that we have seen players act incredibly selfish and do incredibly stupid things (Latrell, Artest, Rodman and the list goes on) and players STILL play with them -- because players in the NBA (for the most part) base their careers on a couple of things: 1) earning money; 2) getting to play; and 3) a chance at a championship (probably in that order too).
They didn't have to pay people more money to play with any of those other players -- I think it's interesting that you think they are going to have to pay Kobe more.
The players you named aren't superstars. None of them has the public eye in the basketball realm the way that players like Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, Iverson, Duncan, etc. have it. None of the players you listed are among the elite players. That means that they aren't the kind of person a player chooses to play with or not play with - because those players could be gone on a moment's notice and the GM wouldn't have any explaining to do to the fans. Not so with Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, Iverson, etc. Kobe is a player who is a team foundation. He's not going anywhere. If you sign with the Lakers, the possibility that you stay and Bryant goes is nowhere in your mind.
When people sign with the Lakers, they know they're going to have to play with Kobe. When people sign with the Pacers, do they know that they're going to have to play with Artest? No. They're going to have to play with Jermaine O'Neal. So disliking Artest isn't the problem you should examine - disliking Jermaine O'Neal would be. You're comparing apples to oranges - a superstar (Bryant) to people who might be shipped out of town in a heartbeat.
They didn't have to pay people more money to play with any of those other players -- I think it's interesting that you think they are going to have to pay Kobe more.
You ALWAYS have to pay a person more to get him to do a job he doesn't want to do (when he has a choice in the matter). If players don't WANT to play with Kobe Bryant, you'll have to pay them more to get them to. The point to argue is whether players will or won't WANT to play with Kobe Bryant.
PS - as for Kobe being the reason why PJ and Shaq are gone -- you are STILL wrong about that.
If Kobe Bryant wanted these guys there, they'd have been there. Bryant's free agency was looming, and the Laker management was NOT going to lose their future foundation. Getting rid of Jackson was as much to do with appeasing Bryant as it was to do with saving money. The evidence? Jackson is back, and he's being paid tons of bucks to be back - so it's not the money that was the issue. It was something else.
And Shaq's work ethic is rotten - everyone knows that. But outside of Los Angeles, pretty much every team wants him. Why is Los Angeles the exception? Because of BRYANT. Sure, O'Neal was incredibly insulting to Jerry Buss with his "give me my money" comment. But that's par for the course in the league.
Bottom line: If Bryant wanted these guys to stay, they'd still be Lakers. They're not (or weren't) - therefore, Kobe didn't want these guys to stay.
What should worry Laker fans for the future is that the only teams built on the strength of guards that have been championship teams are the 1991-4,1996-8 Bulls and the 1989-90 Pistons. And you could make compelling arguments that the '89-90 Pistons had the best backcourt in the league, and that the Bulls had two superstars in Jordan and Pippen. Right now, you've got Kobe Bryant. That more resembles the "got close" teams like Indiana, and only then when Reggie was surrounded with very good talent at all the other spots or the 1980-82 Sixers (yes, I know, Erving was a forward) with Dr. J - and look who all HE had surrounding him! Only when he got Moses in the post did he win - and that year, Moses was the MVP. Can Bryant stomach that? His history says that he can't.
On the bright side, Kobe is still young and has time to smarten up. But he can't be the player and person he was at the end of the 2004 season and expect success. He has to grow up.
-
Translation: Never put me on a jury. I look for WHAT IS BELIEVABLE and the motivation behind it. If I don't see both of those things, I don't inherently trust the information.
I totally agree, Joe, that's why I have problems with the accuser's actions immediately following the sordid event. She went back to work and she wasn't visibly upset. Most people who are raped go into shock -- they're stunned and while they may go back to work they struggle focusing, etc. The only exception that I have seen is date rape victims -- when they have known the person quite well and usually have dated them a time or two (and they are afraid that people to share with people because it's going to be her word against his -- and even then, there were signs if a person knew what to look for).
My struggle wasn't when the defense lawyers went to work -- it was from the very beginning. There are just soooo many things that point that neither is as innocent as they would like you to believe in the whole ordeal -- and you have to prove this beyond reasonable doubt, there's just WAY too much doubt there on both sides, IMO.
The players you named aren't superstars. None of them has the public eye in the basketball realm the way that players like Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, Iverson, Duncan, etc. have it. None of the players you listed are among the elite players. That means that they aren't the kind of person a player chooses to play with or not play with - because those players could be gone on a moment's notice and the GM wouldn't have any explaining to do to the fans. Not so with Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, Iverson, etc. Kobe is a player who is a team foundation. He's not going anywhere. If you sign with the Lakers, the possibility that you stay and Bryant goes is nowhere in your mind.
When people sign with the Lakers, they know they're going to have to play with Kobe. When people sign with the Pacers, do they know that they're going to have to play with Artest? No. They're going to have to play with Jermaine O'Neal. So disliking Artest isn't the problem you should examine - disliking Jermaine O'Neal would be. You're comparing apples to oranges - a superstar (Bryant) to people who might be shipped out of town in a heartbeat.
Okay, point taken -- I might hav a case on Latrell (at least at one point in his career) but personally, I still believe these factors reign in the NBA -- when it comes to FA's signing: 1) money (first and foremost and overrides the other two); 2) playing time; and 3) championship (and at least with Kobe they DO have a chance at a championship -- not where there isn't a superstar such as the Clippers, Magic, etc.).
If Kobe Bryant wanted these guys there, they'd have been there. Bryant's free agency was looming, and the Laker management was NOT going to lose their future foundation. Getting rid of Jackson was as much to do with appeasing Bryant as it was to do with saving money. The evidence? Jackson is back, and he's being paid tons of bucks to be back - so it's not the money that was the issue. It was something else.
-
Sorry, I wasn't done yet . . .
If Kobe Bryant wanted these guys there, they'd have been there. Bryant's free agency was looming, and the Laker management was NOT going to lose their future foundation. Getting rid of Jackson was as much to do with appeasing Bryant as it was to do with saving money. The evidence? Jackson is back, and he's being paid tons of bucks to be back - so it's not the money that was the issue. It was something else.
Okay, I think you are dead wrong on this one, Joe. Why is PJ back (and why is he making so much money to come back?)? Because the Lakers WEREN'T going to get better in FA or in the draft and Buss is faced with the need to make the Lakers better. He recognizes that he has a good thing -- always HAS had with the Lakers. He has a TREMENDOUS cash cow -- and that cow WILL pay up even if the Lakers don't win championships -- BUT they had better be competitive night in and night out and they need to have a legit shot at the playoffs. People (stars) will continue to play INCREDIBLY overinflated prices for season tickets -- remember the .05 season? When the series went back to LA, front row tickets were going for $25,000 a shot! Where else are you going to find that in the NBA?
Buss made his decision with Shaq -- and it was about money. Did Kobe mind Shaq leaving? Absolutely not -- and neither did I! Why? Because I was tired of Shaq coming into the season (and playing through the season) out-of-shape and overweight. Shaq IS the reason why the Lakers lost to Detroit -- because he allowed himself to be covered one-on-one by Ben Wallace. Sure, Shaq got his points and rebounds but the Pistons didn't focus on Shaq -- the focused on Kobe -- and Shaq NEVER gave them a reason to have to focus on him. He should have been a monster -- scoring 50 or 60 points and MAKING the Pistons have to start doubling him. TD did it in the second half of game 7 and when they started having to double TD, that's when things broke lose for the rest of the Spurs. Ben Wallace just ran Shaq all over the court because Shaq was out-of-shape and he doesn't motivate himself. WHY would you want another season (esp. since you knew he was going to come into the season in WORSE shape than the previous year) of Shaq in that kind of shape esp. when he was demanding an extension that was going to effectively kill the Lakers hopes of signing any quality players to play around Shaq and Kobe.
And before you pull the "Shaq can get people to play along side him for less money," you need to look at what happened that year and realize that players weren't going to be eager to do that. 1) How did it work out for GP and Malone? They both gave up salary and it netted them nothing. 2) Shaq tells THEM to come for less money -- "hey, come give up your salary --- I'll give you a ring!" And WHILE they are playing for less money, he starts DEMANDING (to everyone -- even in front of them) that he needs an extension for the max! How many players are going to be excited about giving up salary to come play with a guy that wants them to give up salary so he can get even MORE money? Not very many, IMO.
What should worry Laker fans for the future is that the only teams built on the strength of guards that have been championship teams are the 1991-4,1996-8 Bulls and the 1989-90 Pistons. And you could make compelling arguments that the '89-90 Pistons had the best backcourt in the league, and that the Bulls had two superstars in Jordan and Pippen. Right now, you've got Kobe Bryant. That more resembles the "got close" teams like Indiana, and only then when Reggie was surrounded with very good talent at all the other spots or the 1980-82 Sixers (yes, I know, Erving was a forward) with Dr. J - and look who all HE had surrounding him! Only when he got Moses in the post did he win - and that year, Moses was the MVP. Can Bryant stomach that? His history says that he can't.
Come on, Joe, you just got through telling me that I was comparing apples and oranges and so are you. You are now comparing Reggie with Kobe? Reggie, I don't play defense, Miller? Come on, Joe, Reggie was NEVER a superstar -- he was a one-dimensional player and it showed in the playoffs! Kobe IS a legit superstar so I don't think this comparison quite works.
As for Dr. J, look at the league at the time -- this was during the peak of Boston, LA, even the beginnings of Detroit. The Sixers had star power but nothing like LA and Boston. But the league has changed a LOT since then -- too many teams, IMO, not to mention the salary cap and lack of fundamentals and too many young players without discipline in the league today.
On the bright side, Kobe is still young and has time to smarten up. But he can't be the player and person he was at the end of the 2004 season and expect success. He has to grow up.
I couldn't agree more with this comment. It's the one thing that Laker fans have to hang their hat on. MJ smartened up so I think there is hope for Kobe -- and frankly, last season was the best thing that could have happened to Kobe. Realizing that he CAN'T do it all himself.
I would add the same thing about Shaq! Look at Shaq's record with young superstars -- Penny, Kobe, now Wade. Wade has definately acted more maturely than not only Penny and Kobe but also Shaq. Shaq is STILL making the stupid comments that he did to Penny and Kobe -- the difference is that Wade doesn't even worry about it and just focuses on playing team ball. He is more than happy to allow Shaq to hog the glory -- even when his team wins WITHOUT Shaq (and loses with him but without Wade). Wade doesn't make any comments about anything -- he just looks forward to next year when he can play ball again. Now THAT is a mature player -- THAT'S a guy I like -- on the basketball floor and off it (well, at least what I have seen to date).
The Lakers had an ego problem for years -- one of the reasons why they had to build a new stadium -- because there wasn't enough room in the Forum for Kobe, Shaq AND PJ's egos (they are ALL huge). What's amazing is that the Lakers ever managed to win three titles together!
-
Randy –
You make some excellent points, especially about Shaq and his salary and luring other stars to the Lakers to win a championship. Looked at in that light, yeah, Shaq was truly out of line and you would be hard pressed to side with O'Neal with his "give me the money" demands.
But you can also argue that Shaq is no different from any other ego-driven sports star that is used to being given anything he wants. I would venture that both Payton and Malone, in their primes, would have acted the same way and come to think of it, they did.
Also, I was hoping to keep Kobe's rape trial out of this assessment of him. Serves as a distraction to the basketball stuff, which is what I would prefer the focus was on.
Your description of Shaq's performance during the Piston championship series sounds more like trying to find blame for the Lakers' pretty much getting hammered in that series. I have an alternative suggestion as to why they lost. The Pistons were the better team, including the coaching. If Shaq could not dominate as he had in the previous series and previous years, maybe the defensive schemes that Brown employed and his players executed were just better. I would also assume, being that this was Shaq, that he was not playing at 100% and besides him being in less then great shape, the daily toll of dealing with aggressive defenses may just have worn him down. Should he have played through all of that and been more offensive-minded? Sure, you would think, considering the stakes. But in all likelihood, he just was not able to, and as much as his shape contributed to that, he really is alone out there when it comes to the brutal defenses faced in the middle. Kobe, for instance, would not be able to help him control Wallace. But maybe he could have used a break with some front line help once in a while.
Reggie Miller is going into the Hall of Fame, so I don't think you have a point in saying Reggie was NEVER a superstar. His one dimension could win games in an instant and he did it over and over again. While Kobe IS a more complete player, Joe's comparison is hardly that far off.
Now, as for Kobe maturing, yes, there is hope he may yet do that. But after ten years of mostly success, and getting his own way with coaches and players, fans loving him and Buss paying him tons for years, you have to think his ego MAY be a bit inflated. He just might think he can do it all himself, and one year of clearly (to us at least) contrary results may not change all that.
Just yet.
Eventually, as has been pointed out time and time again, including to Kobe whether he liked Shaq or not, the teams that win do so with more then one great player. Unfortunately, this is where I have a poor opinion of Bryant. I still suspect he believes that the Lakers will only succeed with only him being the star, and with him distributing the ball to teammates, and with all offensive sets starting with him in control.
THAT is the image that Kobe projects. THAT is where we, all of us, have yet to see his maturity focus. Because he will need to share that workload with somebody else at some point. A player who can be just as reliable as himself, where Bryant can essentially be a decoy on occasion because there is another teammate who can break down the opponent effectively.
He has NEVER been viewed as that player in his career. This is why talking about his assists being up and him teaching his teammates the triangle is totally bogus to this argument. Players who fit the real 'Star" billing will never have to be lectured on playing the game by Bryant and will produce plenty of assists on their own. But they will need to know they will have the ball enough of the game to do that, and playing along side Bryant so far has clearly indicated he has no intention of sharing it much.
That may just be my opinion, but that also has been a fair description of Kobe's image up to now.
-
You make some excellent points, especially about Shaq and his salary and luring other stars to the Lakers to win a championship. Looked at in that light, yeah, Shaq was truly out of line and you would be hard pressed to side with O'Neal with his "give me the money" demands.
But you can also argue that Shaq is no different from any other ego-driven sports star that is used to being given anything he wants. I would venture that both Payton and Malone, in their primes, would have acted the same way and come to think of it, they did.
I don't disagree, JoMal. Shaq isn't doing anything different than what Kobe did -- or even GP and Malone when they were younger. However, it does apply to the situation at hand because it was a factor.
Your description of Shaq's performance during the Piston championship series sounds more like trying to find blame for the Lakers' pretty much getting hammered in that series. I have an alternative suggestion as to why they lost. The Pistons were the better team, including the coaching. If Shaq could not dominate as he had in the previous series and previous years, maybe the defensive schemes that Brown employed and his players executed were just better. I would also assume, being that this was Shaq, that he was not playing at 100% and besides him being in less then great shape, the daily toll of dealing with aggressive defenses may just have worn him down. Should he have played through all of that and been more offensive-minded? Sure, you would think, considering the stakes. But in all likelihood, he just was not able to, and as much as his shape contributed to that, he really is alone out there when it comes to the brutal defenses faced in the middle. Kobe, for instance, would not be able to help him control Wallace. But maybe he could have used a break with some front line help once in a while.
I have always said that the team who wins the finals were the better team. However, to state that my explanation was an excuse for why the Lakers got hammered isn't quite accurate, IMO. Brown DID put a tremendous defensive scheme together for the Pistons and the Pistons played that to perfection. Brown did the same thing with the Pistons in the SA series. The Pistons weren't doubling TD and that allowed Detroit to play one-on-one with the rest of the Spurs players. This IS great defense -- and until TD started playing in such a way that they started having to double him, it was working great for the Pistons. Same thing is true with Shaq -- when he demands a double-team, it shakes things loose for everyone else. Shaq got a great deal of help during the regular series and in the playoffs -- in fact, IMO, Malone played better in the SA series than Shaq did. If it weren't for Malone, we wouldn't have made it past SA that year.
And my point STILL is that when stock is starting to slip, you don't respond by dumping a TON of more money in it -- esp. if it's all the money you've got. My ONLY regret with Shaq (other than he wouldn't motivate himself to stay in shape) is that we didn't get MORE for him. THAT was a travesty!
Reggie Miller is going into the Hall of Fame, so I don't think you have a point in saying Reggie was NEVER a superstar. His one dimension could win games in an instant and he did it over and over again. While Kobe IS a more complete player, Joe's comparison is hardly that far off.
Sorry, but there are a TON of players in the Hall of Fame that aren't superstars -- Reggie Miller was NEVER a superstar -- a star? Sure, but not a superstar. Artest is as good a player, if not better, than Reggie Miller -- same with Spree (who actually plays on both ends of the court as was a very good defensive player in his day). Being a Hall of Famer, these days, doesn't earn you the superstar status. Reggie is comparable to the players I mentioned -- Rodman WILL make it into the NBA Hall of Fame someday (if they don't ban him for being an idiot) because the league has seen few players as good defensively as Rodman and the guy was a rebounding machine. If you are going to put a purely one-dimensional player like Reggie in the Hall of Fame because he was great in that dimension -- then you have to put in ALL great one-dimensional players -- and that's a real shame, IMO. There will be many players who make the Hall of Fame - that doesn't make them a superstar.
Reggie is in the same boat, IMO, with Artest, Rodman, Spree, etc.
Unfortunately, this is where I have a poor opinion of Bryant. I still suspect he believes that the Lakers will only succeed with only him being the star, and with him distributing the ball to teammates, and with all offensive sets starting with him in control.
JoMal, name a superstar in the league who doesn't feel this way about himself! I can name a lot of STARS in the league who feel that way -- CWebb definately among them! Most teams have at LEAST one player who feels that way about themselves. You do find some stars that are willing to share the limelight but your description definately would have fit MJ, wouldn't it? Even Magic, who was a consumate team player, realized that HE was the star -- he just also realized that he couldn't do it all himself. I don't have a problem with Bryant feeling like he's a great player and he's the man for the Lakers -- all those things are true! What I have a problem with is the mindset that he's the ONLY Laker and that he doesn't need anyone else. I don't agree that he displays that attitude all the time -- what I don't like is that he has that attitude at all!
-
I don't disagree, JoMal. Shaq isn't doing anything different than what Kobe did -- or even GP and Malone when they were younger. However, it does apply to the situation at hand because it was a factor.
And I am not saying it wasn't.
Same thing is true with Shaq -- when he demands a double-team, it shakes things loose for everyone else. Shaq got a great deal of help during the regular series and in the playoffs -- in fact, IMO, Malone played better in the SA series than Shaq did. If it weren't for Malone, we wouldn't have made it past SA that year.
And my point STILL is that when stock is starting to slip, you don't respond by dumping a TON of more money in it -- esp. if it's all the money you've got. My ONLY regret with Shaq (other than he wouldn't motivate himself to stay in shape) is that we didn't get MORE for him. THAT was a travesty!
But when Malone went down in the playoff series, would you not agree that his being hurt had to have a huge effect on the outcome of the Detroit series? He was playing some dominant basketball up to that point and then it went back onto Shaq's shoulders alone.
As for Shaq's salary demands, any team that has him only has one choice, same as when he was with the Lakers. You get one other legit player to be the playmaker, pay him some good change, and fill up the rest of the roster with NBA
filler material. That pattern looks to be playing out in Miami, though it also seems to work.
JoMal, name a superstar in the league who doesn't feel this way about himself! I can name a lot of STARS in the league who feel that way -- CWebb definately among them! Most teams have at LEAST one player who feels that way about themselves. You do find some stars that are willing to share the limelight but your description definately would have fit MJ, wouldn't it? Even Magic, who was a consumate team player, realized that HE was the star -- he just also realized that he couldn't do it all himself. I don't have a problem with Bryant feeling like he's a great player and he's the man for the Lakers -- all those things are true! What I have a problem with is the mindset that he's the ONLY Laker and that he doesn't need anyone else. I don't agree that he displays that attitude all the time -- what I don't like is that he has that attitude at all!
Comparing Kobe to other superstars who feel the same way isn't the point. My point is those superstars are having the same troubles with it that Bryant appears to have. Iverson, McGrady, even Garnett for some reason, and his game is pretty even. Jordan had Pippen, voted one of the top fifty players ever, so it is hard to include him in a discussion about selfish egos in ball players. But when you strip away those other players and just observe the star, you certainly can learn a lot about them.
And Magic??? With Worthy and Jabber, I don't think his game suffered too much from anyone wanting him not to be the point guard on THAT team.
-
Earlier in this thread I mentioned the christmas game when Miami had beaten the Lakers. To tell you the honest truth I was flabbergasted at the talent Kobe displayed, it was an amazing thing to behold. Miami would score-Kobe sinks a three from 24 feet top of the key, Miami scores-Kobe sinks another three from the baseline, Miami scores-Kobe sinks another three from 27 feet on the diagonal. Fueled by that sense to show the world he didn't need Shaq and could beat him, he made me question whether he was going to miss a single shot that game during the first quarter. Well, eventually he did start to miss and although he played a spectacular game dropping 45 points, Miami won the game. That game is the michrochosm of this whole situation with Kobe and the Lakers.
Kobe hated the fact that as skilled and as amazing as he was, Shaq was billed "as the most dominant". As hardworking and persistant as he was, Shaq was "the Franchise". I think that more than anything across the Lakers championship years just stuck in his craw (to borrow a western phrase). It was the bird nibbling on his entrails as he won championship after championship. Whether subconcious or outwardly poignant, he began to resent Shaq, and what he perceived as Phil's favoritism towards Shaq (and if you read Phil's book, his perception was probably right). And when the Lakers got shelacked by some up and coming, over-achieving, journeyman like the Pistons, that was exactly the excuse he needed to gain control of what was rightfully HIS. Kobe pushed Shaq and Phil out to prove to the entire world that he was good enough on his own (without those two) to bring the Lakers glory. Maybe it is this fear of under-appreciation or envy (might be a better word) that leads him to work harder, put his teammates down, trust only himself with the important shots, run the offense, direct traffic, speak up during timeouts. Some of these are great qualities to have in a leader, but taken too far, could lead to arrogance, selfishness, aloofness, jealousy.
Lamar Odom his last year on the Heat was the focus of the offense. His passing and shooting ability from the high post lead to defensive mismatches and great opportunites for cutters like Caron and Dwayne. He was confidant, decisive, and it showed as he had his best year ever in his career. Watching him last year with the Lakers, he seemed lost when he got the ball (the few times he did). He would settle for bad outside shots, try to force shots in traffic or just hand it back to Kobe. You'd swear it was two different people. That is until Kobe went down and people caught a glimpse of the previous year's brilliance and Laker Fans enjoyed double-doubles and four different games of 8 assists and another one with 7 assists.
Taken in context of my larger theory, Kobe Bryant in his quest to prove to the world that he is indeed a superstar of supreme dominance in the basketball world hangs over like a cloud across the Laker team. The flow of the game is so saturated with Kobe's involvement that it stifles the creativity and prowess of players like Odom. Players the Lakers need to realize success once again. Even with a player like Jordan, Luc Longley and Ron Harper were the main offense to start games. Scottie Pippen brought the ball up the court on many occasions. With that great 92-93 Phoenix team, Richard Dumas was the first quarters offensive focus (not Barkley-MVP, not KJ, not Majerle).
I believe for the Lakers to succeed, Kobe is going to have to learn to trust again. He is going to have to trust that someone else on his team can score, can pass, can set the offense, and that doesn't mean he still won't be the best player on the team or that he won't be its captain or that he won't be appreciated by Laker fans. I think Phil might help him in this respect (if I'm correct and its a mental problem).
I don't believe that Dwayne Wade has the all-around skills of Kobe Bryant, yet. In time, maybe, but as it stands today, no way. But Wade has no problem doing what he does, being the all-star he is, contributing as much as he can when all reporters can say is "what a great teammate", and posters like some of us will say "Shaq is the reason Miami is title contender". None of that bothers Wade. He doesn't care if Shaq calls himself the best player on the Heat, he doesn't care if people believe it when Shaq says it. This is the mental advantage that Wade has on Kobe. This is why he makes up one component of the best 1-2 punch in the league. It is his lack of the mental insecurites Bryant has that allows him to play with a dominant player like Shaq. Now 4 years down the road should Wade gain some championships alongside Shaq, will he begin to have some of Kobe's problems. I don't know, it is a possibility. As Kobe matures and gets over his problems, will he allow meaningful contribution from star teammates, I don't know, it is a possibility.
Should Kobe have tried to get over his problems and tried his hardest to make sure Phil and Shaq came back and keep things going. I think he should have but thats my personal opinion. Will Kobe prove me wrong, he may very well. As it stands after one year, I don't begrudge JoMaL's opinion that maybe a change is necessary, and I don't begrudge Randy and WK's opinion that the Lakers have not been given enough time to build around Kobe. I will simply wait and see...
-
Skander,
To add to your thought, though, what should we EXPECT to see from Kobe? Realistic expectations have to be out there for him.
Is it realistic to expect a Laker title in the next year or two? Well, that kind of depends on what happens with the roster, doesn't it? If LA suddenly gets a couple of top-level post players in steal deals, it changes the level of expectations.
Is it realistic to expect a Laker playoff berth in the next year or so? Again, it depends.
What folks don't realize is that Kobe has REMOVED the expectations from himself in this little soap opera. And I maintain that without some level of expectation, Kobe can't hope to redeem himself.
Kobe's fans will always be his fans, and his haters will always be his haters. But how does the objective outsider evaluate Kobe Bryant *NOW*?
Obviously, he has to step up his leadership skills. The question is, "How will we know it when he does?" He has to do a better job winning the respect of his teammates. He has to do a better job of putting his faith in his teammates. BUT HOW WILL WE KNOW IT?
In my opinion, Bryant has irrevokably damaged his reputation, because there's no good criteria of evaluation - save the "miracle" type of happening (the Lakers, with their current roster, win the championship - and even then, will the credit go to Kobe, or to Phil?). And miracles don't happen often.
I've often said at the office, "I don't want the reputation of being a miracle worker, because then, people expect you to routinely work miracles." Like it or not, before the happenings of 2003-4, Bryant was a miracle worker. He's lost that golden image. I don't know that it's possible to recapture it.
-
Besides all of what you guys have said, Kobe is never going to grow another six inches and add 150 pounds, so all he has to fall back on is his skill level. He never will be as dominant as Shaq, no matter how skilled he gets.
-
What folks don't realize is that Kobe has REMOVED the expectations from himself in this little soap opera. And I maintain that without some level of expectation, Kobe can't hope to redeem himself.
Kobe's fans will always be his fans, and his haters will always be his haters. But how does the objective outsider evaluate Kobe Bryant *NOW*?
Whether Kobe has removed the expectations or not (and I'm not arguing that he didn't), doesn't stop expectations from being placed on him, ANYWAY. After all this guy is the best player on the Lakers (not the Hawks) in all their grandiose. I guarantee you the Lakers remain a lottery team 4 years from now, Randy and WK will be back in here screaming for Kobe's head.
Now the objective outsider will take a look at a couple of factors:
1. How successful have the Kobe Lakers been?
2. How successful has Kobe's team been in relation to Shaq's team?
3. If the Lakers are successful, did Kobe contribute significantly?
If the answer to those questions is yes, moreso, and yes, I'll gladly eat my words that Kobe can't do it alone. If the answer is yes, less so, and yes, I'll eat my words about Kobe but maintain he should've tried to keep Shaq around. Any other answers and I'll believe Kobe screwed up a good thing.
Besides all of what you guys have said, Kobe is never going to grow another six inches and add 150 pounds, so all he has to fall back on is his skill level. He never will be as dominant as Shaq, no matter how skilled he gets.
I don't think anyone disputes that at this time, my question remains does the fact that people believe this in anyway propogate Kobe's insecurities and thereby lead to mediocre Laker teams.
-
What folks don't realize is that Kobe has REMOVED the expectations from himself in this little soap opera. And I maintain that without some level of expectation, Kobe can't hope to redeem himself.
Kobe's fans will always be his fans, and his haters will always be his haters. But how does the objective outsider evaluate Kobe Bryant *NOW*?
Whether Kobe has removed the expectations or not (and I'm not arguing that he didn't), doesn't stop expectations from being placed on him, ANYWAY. After all this guy is the best player on the Lakers (not the Hawks) in all their grandiose. I guarantee you the Lakers remain a lottery team 4 years from now, Randy and WK will be back in here screaming for Kobe's head.
Phil Jackson in coming back to coach did Kobe one of if not the biggest favors that struggling Kobadiah could recieve. Media attention on Kobe, if the Lakers flame and lotto next year (i agree, lets give him his chance to try to be like MJ) would have been total spotlight. Whatever other coach they would have hired, except Larry B, oh sure the coach would have caught some media for not being in the playoffs. But that coach would not be the great and powerful wizard of PhilZen. He be burned a bit in the media, but nothing like Kobe.
Kobadiah would get the full brunt of the attention. Xs it by 5 if Shaqs thigh heals and The Heat have another 1st place reg season.
Now with Phil, any lotto team finish or 1st Round flop and the media blitz will be divided. Probably a bit more towards Phil but certainly no worse then 50-50.
Phil whats it like after 9 rings now tanking?
Repeat repeat repeat blah blah blah.
Besides the national and LA media, dabods get the bandwidth increase ready here.
-
Whether Kobe has removed the expectations or not (and I'm not arguing that he didn't), doesn't stop expectations from being placed on him, ANYWAY. After all this guy is the best player on the Lakers (not the Hawks) in all their grandiose. I guarantee you the Lakers remain a lottery team 4 years from now, Randy and WK will be back in here screaming for Kobe's head.
Now the objective outsider will take a look at a couple of factors:
1. How successful have the Kobe Lakers been?
2. How successful has Kobe's team been in relation to Shaq's team?
3. If the Lakers are successful, did Kobe contribute significantly?
If the answer to those questions is yes, moreso, and yes, I'll gladly eat my words that Kobe can't do it alone. If the answer is yes, less so, and yes, I'll eat my words about Kobe but maintain he should've tried to keep Shaq around. Any other answers and I'll believe Kobe screwed up a good thing.
Umm, guys, I think you misunderstanding my points to date.
Here they are in a nutshell:
1. Kobe, Shaq, PJ -- they are ALL guilty in this -- none are innocent, all are equally to blame.
2. It took ALL three (and some quality role players) to win 3 NBA Championships -- the were all needed and all were vital (I'd throw Tex Winters in there too).
3. I have never said that Kobe has been successful or will be successful as the leader of the Lakers. What I have said is that you can't judge at this point because he lacks the role players needed to due to the lack of cap space to judge. I don't think you are going to be able to come to a conclusion for several years -- and if Kobe doesn't live up to be the leader that I think he can be? Absolutely, I'll be calling for the Lakers to trade him for whatever they can get!
PS - There is a LOT mentioned about the fact that Shaq took Miami to the EC Finals -- but we need to stop and remember the following: Miami managed to win without Shaq but they got beat without Wade. I think that says a LOT about Miami's team even without Shaq. While Shaq deserves a lot of credit -- let's make sure that we realize that Miami managed to do pretty well for themselves without Shaq. I would, of course, add that Shaq (like any good superstar -- esp. when he's a big man rebounding, blocking shots and playing defense) helps role players confidence a great deal.
-
" I guarantee you the Lakers remain a lottery team 4 years from now, Randy and WK will be back in here screaming for Kobe's head."
I hope we all continue to post together for the next 4 years. All I can say is only time will tell.
However, I will not call for Kobe's head unless the Lakers management bring in somebody to help out. If the Lakers land a quality player(s) to compliment Kobe and they continue to fall flat, then I will not give him a pass. Right now I feel its too early to judge anything and the Lakers management (aka that moron Kupchek) need to do their part also.
If the Lakers magically make the playoffs next year will you be feasting on crow Skand? :cheers:
-
I don't think anyone disputes that at this time, my question remains does the fact that people believe this in anyway propogate Kobe's insecurities and thereby lead to mediocre Laker teams.
Wouldn't it HAVE TO? I mean, come on - there's been one 2-guard in the past 25 years who people have looked at as the key to the championship, and a lot of people (mistakenly) believe that that guy is the best player of all time! Kobe has been crowned the "Next Jordan" for a number of years, and Jordan never played second fiddle to anyone during his stay in the pros. It's easily possible for someone to argue that, due to the expectations, Kobe was underachieving. Now personally, I think that the only way Kobe underachieved was in allowing himself to become a distraction to the team, which finally blossommed into a distraction from winning. By the numbers, Kobe's had a great career.
And let's not forget that Kobe's father also displayed a lot of the same kind of "what I could have been" behavior - comparing himself with Erving and Magic. Perhaps it's more than just the environment at work.
I believe that being the best 2-guard in the league was so inadequate for Kobe's ego - whether that's due to arrogance or insecurity, I can't really say - that he destroyed one of the key chemistries that allowed him to be the league's best 2-guard. The talent is still there - but the chemistry has to be re-worked.
As for expectations, I think my question is really "What are *FAIR* expectations which Bryant must meet to elevate his status back to what it was?" Beating a single player's team doesn't really cut it, in my book. Nor does Laker success, if it comes with too high of a price in the meantime. Is a single title all he needs? Given what he had, I don't know that that's significant enough of an accomplishment. Granted, that's a significant statement about his accomplishments in the past, but it also plays a part in his expectations for the future. And how quickly that is done *DOES* play a part in the whole picture.